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Re: Count Binface

#171

Post by prohobo »

dofm wrote: post #164
prohobo wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This doesn't make a fool of Farage though! It clarifies to anyone already skeptical of the establishment that when pushed, they'd rather not play than risk losing. This is literally self-defeating! You claim that this kind of thing "generally harms populists more than anything else," but I can't think of a single time that it actually has at the scale that matters. What would harm populists would be a viable alternat…

> This doesn't make a fool of Farage though! I sense that you are not British, but you can trust us when we say this has absolutely made a fool of him to the British public. This is really a bespoke kind of humiliation.

I lived in London for six years starting just before Brexit, so I watched this exact confidence up close. The British public "knowing" Farage is damaged is not new, it's not justified, and it doesn't do anything except make people feel better on social media.

I'm pretty sure that just like every other backhanded attempt to squash the populists, this will backfire. I can't know that of course, but I'm pattern-matching against years of this kind of stuff happening in like 5-6 different countries in Europe already.

Re: Count Binface

#172

Post by zwischenzug »

prohobo wrote: post #159
johneth wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The other parties aren't standing in this particular byelection because they (correctly) realise that it's just a media stunt by Farage, who is attempting to paint himself as a victim of establishment harassment (while being the epitome of 'the establishment' himself). By not standing, and forcing Farage to run against joke candidates, they've made a fool of him (which generally harms populists more than anything els…

This doesn't make a fool of Farage though! It clarifies to anyone already skeptical of the establishment that when pushed, they'd rather not play than risk losing. This is literally self-defeating! You claim that this kind of thing "generally harms populists more than anything else," but I can't think of a single time that it actually has at the scale that matters. What would harm populists would be a viable alternat…

If Farage wins he is still subject to an investigation that could eject him from Parliament, over a 5m crypto gift/loan he received from an ex-pat donor that he did not declare.

Farage is looking to get a popular mandate to try and both draw attention away from that investigation, and justify keeping his position because "the people have spoken". The other parties don't want to undermine the investigation by taking part in an election which would be moot if he were found guilty anyway.

Farage is therefore punching on air, and has been reduced to arguing that a joke candidate with a bin on his head who claims to be from outer space is an "establishment" (aka "deep state") plant.

It's actually a smart move from the other parties. Without a serious "enemy" to fight, populists look foolish as their usual rhetorical moves have no bite.

Re: Count Binface

#173

Post by Twey »

dofm wrote: post #102
madaxe_again wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn’t it the democratic ideal though? Of the people, for the people. If a representative democracy is to truly be representative then the elected representatives should be… representative? Tuberville and Mullin I wouldn’t say were thick so much as they’re pretty average.

Goodness, if Tuberville is average then the USA is in much worse shape than it realises. Mullin, like MTG, has some political instincts and some facility with the parliamentary process, as it turns out, and I almost feel bad about putting him in the same category as Tuberville, but he is not a smart guy. Don’t get me wrong, we have many mediocre politicians in the UK, but few like these guys at the parliamentary leve…

But we are importing this model now in Boris Johnson and Farage. As far as I can see Farage is doing exactly (a British spin on) the GWB strategy: despite having a pretty classical private-school upbringing he's created a ‘bloke from the pub’ character that is much more relatable to the lower classes, and it seems to be working pretty well.

It was really interesting to me to see BoJo's take on it, which was similar but with aristocratic mannerisms (and stereotypes!) mixed in. I guess it was aimed at the middle class, for whom upper-class dogwhistles have typically landed well.

Re: Count Binface

#174

Post by defrost »

gadders wrote: post #166
MarcScott wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Very briefly: Farage received a "gift" of £5M. He didn't tell parliament about the gift, which breaks the rules. MPs or campaigning MPs need to declare gifts and donations, as there are strict rules on who you can receive money from. The media found out about the "gift", and Farage was going to be investigated. He resigned as MP for Clacton, which stops the investigation and triggers an election. I think his plan was…

[flagged]

> Farage said the funds are required for his personal security

Nope. If he had declared that then there would be no issue what so ever.

There is no restriction on gifted money, no requirement on what to use it for - simply a common code of conduct that requires gifts to be declared.

Farage could of declared it, but didn't - now he has been outed with his hand in cookie jar in a dark closet he's retconning a reason he simply could have fronted with and taken his cookies with the light on and everybody watching.

  There are no qualitative judgements made about what one does with this money, just that it is declared. Looking at the Register of Members’ Interests, you find any number of politicians’ gifts, with varying degrees of information about what the gift was for. Farage could very simply have written “£5m; Christopher Harborne; Security”. If that was too intrusive, he may even have been able to write “£5m; Christopher Harborne; Gift”.

  The problem with the Harborne donation, as it relates to the Code of Conduct, is not – and never has been – about what is what for. It is about whether it should have been declared.
Nigel Farage’s donations: four key claims fact checked by an expert in political finance - https://theconversation.com/nigel-farages-donations-four-key...

Re: Count Binface

#175

Post by WJW »

lambdaone wrote: post #118
a_humean wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The biggest practical obstacle, other than getting elected, is the dress code for the house of commons which disallows military uniform, disallows face covering (while voting), and requires smart business attire. You could argue that he might be in violation of all three! The name isn't really that much of a problem.

To be fair, we really don't know what counts as smart business attire on Sigma IX.

Or military uniform, for that matter.

Re: Count Binface

#176

Post by Twey »

karel-3d wrote: post #115
edent wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's no such thing as a "legal name" in the UK. For example, Boris Johnson's first name isnt actually Boris - that's just what he goes by.

Huh that's new. I knew you guys don't have any official government ID (and that it was an issue in Blair era) but I didn't knew you don't even have legal names.

We have official government ID (the national insurance number, roughly equivalent to a USian SSN), but names aren't expected to reliably link it in one hop, and we're politically averse to laws that require citizens to produce it in various circumstances, e.g. carrying ID cards, even though in practice most people do carry some form of government-sanctioned ID. Name changing is mostly limited by the fact that it becomes the duty of the person using a different name to laboriously link the new name to any previous names they've used wherever you need some paperwork in a different name. E.g. you need to provide your NI number to be employed, which typically means you need to have a paper trail back to it across any renames you might have had.

Re: Count Binface

#177

Post by manarth »

rjsw wrote: post #24
blast wrote: post #14

Prior art: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boaty_McBoatface

Better prior art [1], in an actual election. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stuart_Drummond

Also members of the Original Monster Raving Loony Party, who have achieved multiple seats, including Mayor of Ashburton.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Official_Monster_Raving_Loony_...

Re: Count Binface

#178

Post by altairprime »

flir wrote: post #89
madaxe_again wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn’t it the democratic ideal though? Of the people, for the people. If a representative democracy is to truly be representative then the elected representatives should be… representative? Tuberville and Mullin I wouldn’t say were thick so much as they’re pretty average.

Nah, you elect the person who best represents your interests, not the person who best represents you . Look on it as a hiring process. Don't you want to select someone competent?

That’s a very interesting game theory question: the answer is not always “yes”, especially when it comes to people’s secret motivations!

Re: Count Binface

#179

Post by thrance »

teamonkey wrote: post #90
dofm wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't know how I feel about the British comedy candidate outclassing half of the American elected leadership–and a good fraction of its industrial leadership–on IQ.) Your entire political system has flirted with anti-intellectualism for over a century; it used to pretend to be uneducated simpletons to appeal to the electorate (witness, e.g. the folksy “ahhm just a simple mayynn” gurning schtick of Senator John Ke…

I went looking for stats saying the UK has declining literacy rates but could only find ones that said that literacy was improving. https://www.ons.gov.uk/explore-local-statistics/indicators/e...

That's because dofm is conflating general literacy with the political class'. There are still very smart people around, but they're no longer the face of elections.

Re: Count Binface

#180

Post by thrance »

teamonkey wrote: post #90
dofm wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't know how I feel about the British comedy candidate outclassing half of the American elected leadership–and a good fraction of its industrial leadership–on IQ.) Your entire political system has flirted with anti-intellectualism for over a century; it used to pretend to be uneducated simpletons to appeal to the electorate (witness, e.g. the folksy “ahhm just a simple mayynn” gurning schtick of Senator John Ke…

I went looking for stats saying the UK has declining literacy rates but could only find ones that said that literacy was improving. https://www.ons.gov.uk/explore-local-statistics/indicators/e...

That's because dofm is conflating general literacy with the political class'. There are still very smart people around, but they're no longer the face of elections. As they said, decades of glorifying dimwits will do that.
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