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How Ukraine Built a War Fighting State

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Re: How Ukraine Built a War Fighting State

#31

Post by vardump »

Beijinger wrote: post #26
999900000999 wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This article was pretty light on the sheer amount of Western aid provided to Ukraine. The whole thing is a cluster. A ton of Ukrainian people *are* ethnically Russian, particularly in the east. They aren’t exactly going to be ok under a NATO backed regime that’s hostile to Russia. Russia shouldn’t tolerate NATO troops stationed on one of its longest land borders. I guarantee if the Chinese worked out a deal to statio…

"The whole thing is a cluster. A ton of Ukrainian people are ethnically Russian, particularly in the east." Yep. Ukraine is not a Nation state, like Germany, or Finnland, or Sweden. Like Belgium, is is deep divided. The division was reflected in each election. Literally, the east voted for one candidate, the west for the other. I slept in a Hostel during the war in Kyiv. There ware Ukrainians and Russian Ukrainians.…

True before the war. Putin did manage to make Ukraine united.

The clear majority of Russian speaking Ukrainians support Zelenskyy now.

Re: How Ukraine Built a War Fighting State

#32

Post by vardump »

Beijinger wrote: post #24
Arnt wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"let's send this stuff from the warehouse to Ukraine" "let's say it's a value of $x even though it's close to the use-by date" and then come you and write that someone sent $x, and expect anyone to believe that. And you even write that $x makes hard things easy. Hope much did the US pay to lose against Iran? Winning against anyone for the same sum isn't easy.

Ukraine is not winning. This is a distorted view in the west, and I am not Russian. Just a few more billions and Russia will collapse. Russia is not fighting Ukraine, Russia is fighting NATO. And we are in dangerous territory. Emmanuell Todd predicted this and this is not a person to be taken lightly (e.g. predicting the collapse of the Soviet Union in 1976 as a 26 years old PhD student): https://americanaffairsjourn…

I honestly don't see how Russia is going to win. The West is never going to allow that, because the future consequences would be detrimental.

Re: How Ukraine Built a War Fighting State

#33

Post by Sabinus »

Beijinger wrote: post #24
Arnt wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"let's send this stuff from the warehouse to Ukraine" "let's say it's a value of $x even though it's close to the use-by date" and then come you and write that someone sent $x, and expect anyone to believe that. And you even write that $x makes hard things easy. Hope much did the US pay to lose against Iran? Winning against anyone for the same sum isn't easy.

Ukraine is not winning. This is a distorted view in the west, and I am not Russian. Just a few more billions and Russia will collapse. Russia is not fighting Ukraine, Russia is fighting NATO. And we are in dangerous territory. Emmanuell Todd predicted this and this is not a person to be taken lightly (e.g. predicting the collapse of the Soviet Union in 1976 as a 26 years old PhD student): https://americanaffairsjourn…

Russia is not entitled to swallow any neighbour that looks at them funny. Neither are we required to stand by and do nothing for the fear of the possibility that Russia will become more belligerent.

Russia thought the Ukrainians wouldn't put up much resistance and launched a war of conquest to prevent Ukraine from joining the EU. It's failed in it's gamble and it has to experience the consequences.

Russia often reforms only after military defeat exposes how badly the state and army are failing: Crimea pushed the Great Reforms, Japan helped trigger 1905, and Afghanistan plus the Cold War strain fed the Soviet collapse. Loss forces changes that peace lets the system avoid. And maybe we'll get a conciliatory government not an aggressive one doubling down.

Re: How Ukraine Built a War Fighting State

#35

Post by Thraway198 »

Beijinger wrote: post #24
Arnt wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"let's send this stuff from the warehouse to Ukraine" "let's say it's a value of $x even though it's close to the use-by date" and then come you and write that someone sent $x, and expect anyone to believe that. And you even write that $x makes hard things easy. Hope much did the US pay to lose against Iran? Winning against anyone for the same sum isn't easy.

Ukraine is not winning. This is a distorted view in the west, and I am not Russian. Just a few more billions and Russia will collapse. Russia is not fighting Ukraine, Russia is fighting NATO. And we are in dangerous territory. Emmanuell Todd predicted this and this is not a person to be taken lightly (e.g. predicting the collapse of the Soviet Union in 1976 as a 26 years old PhD student): https://americanaffairsjourn…

Russia is about to show what it's really made of. If it can't win against Ukraine's scaled-up defence industry, then I gotta say, all these doomsayers and West-Putin equivocators will look pretty dumb.

Re: How Ukraine Built a War Fighting State

#36

Post by Thraway198 »

Beijinger wrote: post #24
Arnt wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"let's send this stuff from the warehouse to Ukraine" "let's say it's a value of $x even though it's close to the use-by date" and then come you and write that someone sent $x, and expect anyone to believe that. And you even write that $x makes hard things easy. Hope much did the US pay to lose against Iran? Winning against anyone for the same sum isn't easy.

Ukraine is not winning. This is a distorted view in the west, and I am not Russian. Just a few more billions and Russia will collapse. Russia is not fighting Ukraine, Russia is fighting NATO. And we are in dangerous territory. Emmanuell Todd predicted this and this is not a person to be taken lightly (e.g. predicting the collapse of the Soviet Union in 1976 as a 26 years old PhD student): https://americanaffairsjourn…

Your link says absolutely nothing about Ukraine losing the war with Russia.

Re: How Ukraine Built a War Fighting State

#37

Post by Sabinus »

999900000999 wrote: post #28
Beijinger wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"The whole thing is a cluster. A ton of Ukrainian people are ethnically Russian, particularly in the east." Yep. Ukraine is not a Nation state, like Germany, or Finnland, or Sweden. Like Belgium, is is deep divided. The division was reflected in each election. Literally, the east voted for one candidate, the west for the other. I slept in a Hostel during the war in Kyiv. There ware Ukrainians and Russian Ukrainians.…

It appears you’ve been downvoted and flagged. You see, to the Westerner things must be black and white. Russia is evil and the West good, despite the last Iraq war having something like 10x as many innocent casualties as the Ukraine war. Something must be different between Iraqis and Ukrainians to make the latter so much more worthy of concern. Guess we’ll never know.

I don't think that's a fair assessment of Western perspectives.

If the USA was 6 years into a very messy conquest of Mexico because Mexico wanted to join a trade bloc with China, the West would be very disapproving of American actions.

Similarly the Iraq war is unpopular to Western citizens. Even at the time the British weren't very into it, and the Germans and French outright refused to participate.

Re: How Ukraine Built a War Fighting State

#38

Post by consumer451 »

Beijinger wrote: post #24
Arnt wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"let's send this stuff from the warehouse to Ukraine" "let's say it's a value of $x even though it's close to the use-by date" and then come you and write that someone sent $x, and expect anyone to believe that. And you even write that $x makes hard things easy. Hope much did the US pay to lose against Iran? Winning against anyone for the same sum isn't easy.

Ukraine is not winning. This is a distorted view in the west, and I am not Russian. Just a few more billions and Russia will collapse. Russia is not fighting Ukraine, Russia is fighting NATO. And we are in dangerous territory. Emmanuell Todd predicted this and this is not a person to be taken lightly (e.g. predicting the collapse of the Soviet Union in 1976 as a 26 years old PhD student): https://americanaffairsjourn…

> The regime change will come, but likely different than we thought - AfD in Germany, Farange in the UK and LePen in France.

Unfortunately you are correct, as Ruski Mir's greatest export is corruption.

The West suffers from the Paradox of Tolerance, and is generally unprepared to deal with Moscow's political operations.

The good news is that those are just three countries, and the EU is made of many more.

The crazy thing to me is that all that Europe wants is for Moscow to join us in the 21st century, and just stop murdering your neighbors.

Apparently this is too much to ask of the old guard. But, we all went through this and eventually became "normal countries." Russia will as well one day, and the Russian people will be one of the greatest beneficiaries of this maturation.

Re: How Ukraine Built a War Fighting State

#39

Post by 999900000999 »

Sabinus wrote: post #37
999900000999 wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It appears you’ve been downvoted and flagged. You see, to the Westerner things must be black and white. Russia is evil and the West good, despite the last Iraq war having something like 10x as many innocent casualties as the Ukraine war. Something must be different between Iraqis and Ukrainians to make the latter so much more worthy of concern. Guess we’ll never know.

I don't think that's a fair assessment of Western perspectives. If the USA was 6 years into a very messy conquest of Mexico because Mexico wanted to join a trade bloc with China, the West would be very disapproving of American actions. Similarly the Iraq war is unpopular to Western citizens. Even at the time the British weren't very into it, and the Germans and French outright refused to participate.

>Mexico wanted to join a trade bloc with China,

A trade block of which the majority of it's members are in NATO.

Don't forget John Mc Cain, who never saw a war he didn't like, took a personal visit to Ukraine.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/dec/15/john-mccain-uk...

Do you think he came to hand out cupcakes ?

>the British weren't very into it,

Was that a valid defense at Nuremberg?

Re: How Ukraine Built a War Fighting State

#40

Post by Thraway198 »

999900000999 wrote: post #39
Sabinus wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think that's a fair assessment of Western perspectives. If the USA was 6 years into a very messy conquest of Mexico because Mexico wanted to join a trade bloc with China, the West would be very disapproving of American actions. Similarly the Iraq war is unpopular to Western citizens. Even at the time the British weren't very into it, and the Germans and French outright refused to participate.

>Mexico wanted to join a trade bloc with China, A trade block of which the majority of it's members are in NATO. Don't forget John Mc Cain, who never saw a war he didn't like, took a personal visit to Ukraine. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/dec/15/john-mccain-uk... Do you think he came to hand out cupcakes ? >the British weren't very into it, Was that a valid defense at Nuremberg?

Joining NATO is obviously the correct choice for countries like Ukraine, as evidenced by Russia's ongoing actions towards them.

Perhaps if Mexico had a long history of being invaded, divided up, and "Americanized," they would be part of a Military Alliance against American Aggression. As they should.

The German people weren't on trial at Nuremberg.

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