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Einstein's relativity rules chemical bonds in heavy elements, new research shows

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Re: Einstein's relativity rules chemical bonds in heavy elements, new research shows

#131
post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Part of the problem is that the difficulty curve becomes, like, superexponential if you try to do the actual math. Fairly elementary atoms require the full theory of quantum mechanics to justify rigorously, and anything more complicated than that requires huge bodies of specialist knowledge on approximation schemes (I assume; I haven't studied them, but given that helium already requires approximations I'm assuming t…

All this computing power. Can we even simulate a water molecule yet from scratch with QM?

yea im doing my masters in dft research so ik abt this. depends what u want 2 simulate! chemists more do molecular dynamics type stuff and will use experimental data for fitting data etc. like uh what surface of a metal water will react with from thermodynamics or something. (that isnt my field lol i just know a lot of catalysis guys.)

truly ab initio methods involve figuring out electronic properties from scratch like ionization energy or bandstructure. the real issue is that we dont have exact relations for the exchange and correlation terms. we can know the kinetic energy and charge screening, but we dont know how the electrons are interacting with each other. generally the xc term is treated as a function of electron density or its gradient (see: lda, gga, meta-gga) but there are so many different ways to approximate that. different models are good for different applications also, like transition metals vs organics. and then theres the issue of basis sets (most people use gaussian basis sets that have been tuned over many years but theres also plane waves and finite element methods) which can also change results. and even once u have a decent approximation of density you can try perturbative methods (GW family, delta scf i count also) to try and improve the approximation. i am rambling and typing this on my phone. essentially yes, but often calculations are a little inaccurate. but more accuracy has a higher computational cost, which makes it hard to run larger simulations. tradeoffs of engineering. hope this was coherent.

Re: Einstein's relativity rules chemical bonds in heavy elements, new research shows

#132

> The increased nuclear mass causes orbiting electrons to speed up to a significant fraction of the speed of light, where the rules of Einstein’s theory of relativity are important. > In the relativistic regime, an electron’s spin — the magnetic moment that points either up or down — and the electron’s orbit are no longer independent of each other, a state known as spin-orbit coupling. Interesting stuff. I've never h…

As written that sentence is wrong. The increased nuclear mass is not the cause of the effects. It's the increase in the nuclear charge and subsequent modification of the coulomb potential that is relevant.

Re: Einstein's relativity rules chemical bonds in heavy elements, new research shows

#133
post #10
post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I had incredible difficulties with Chemistry, more than any other subject, because most everything was hand waved away, requiring mostly rote memorization. I could never get an intuitive understanding, partly because my profs seemingly refusing to think about things from a physics perspective. My physics prof was able to help with some of it. It was very odd. If I would have stuck with it, would things have improved?

Part of the problem is that the difficulty curve becomes, like, superexponential if you try to do the actual math. Fairly elementary atoms require the full theory of quantum mechanics to justify rigorously, and anything more complicated than that requires huge bodies of specialist knowledge on approximation schemes (I assume; I haven't studied them, but given that helium already requires approximations I'm assuming t…

The subject in chemistry isn't theory. It's what actually happens in nature. Even immense levels of theory just don't close the gap.

Re: Einstein's relativity rules chemical bonds in heavy elements, new research shows

#134

> The increased nuclear mass causes orbiting electrons to speed up to a significant fraction of the speed of light, where the rules of Einstein’s theory of relativity are important. Fun fact: this is why mercury is liquid at room temperature. Its inner electrons move at close to 60% the speed of light, pulling in its outer electrons more tightly, making it harder for it to bond and be solid. (I am not a physicist, do…

I guess the more interesting question is why this doesn't happen for neighbouring elements in the periodic table?

Relativistic effects are observed with many other 6th and 7th period elements. For example, the yellow colour of gold and caesium comes from altered electron energy levels due to relativistic orbital contraction, so are the special catalytic and bonding properties of platinum.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relativistic_quantum_chemistry

Re: Einstein's relativity rules chemical bonds in heavy elements, new research shows

#135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

doesn't that also apply for the maths-> physics layer? id say maths is the bottom layer

Yes, we've all seen the xkcd[1] but you've misunderstood it. Physics applies mathematics but mathematics cannot derive physics in the way that a complete physics (and a lot of compute) could derive chemistry and biochemistry. Math isn't attempting to describe a physical universe. It provides the substrate upon which such a description can be expressed and validated - found to be consistent with itself - but many vali…

> mathematics cannot derive physics

thats just at the current state of the art...doesnt mean a complete maths cannot...its arguably debatable why physics follow some maths and why the specific constrains

Re: Einstein's relativity rules chemical bonds in heavy elements, new research shows

#136
post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Part of the problem is that the difficulty curve becomes, like, superexponential if you try to do the actual math. Fairly elementary atoms require the full theory of quantum mechanics to justify rigorously, and anything more complicated than that requires huge bodies of specialist knowledge on approximation schemes (I assume; I haven't studied them, but given that helium already requires approximations I'm assuming t…

But oftentimes theoretical chemistry is not as important as what we get out of experiments because unlike physics, which attempts to derive general laws of nature, chemistry has to deal with the nitty gritty of the diversity of actual miscroscopic interactions of things. Any theory that is not entirely rigorous or even has slight room for an exception will be ignored by necessity, and physics is chock full of such ex…

I think that as you ascend the scale of complexity, and just system size, then necessarily empiricalism and rote learning/memorization has to take over from more reductionalist explanations.

Physics, whether at atomic level, or on a much larger scale, is simple enough that reductionism usually works and you can calculate behavior from first principles using a few memorized "laws"

Biology is well past the point of complexity where you can do this most of the time, unless perhaps you are at the level of aspects of cellular behavior that can be analyzed in terms of chemistry.

Chemistry is in-between physics and biology in terms of complexity. In simple cases chemistry can be explained in terms of physics, but as AlphaFold has shown when you get to a certain level of complexity (in this case protein folding) empiricism takes over and you need to perform experiments and memorize results.

I think modern science and philosophy has a reasonable understanding of what life is, even if you disagree. This is certainly more a matter of philosophy than science, but it seems the best definition of life is based on the ability of a system to actively maintain a boundary between itself and the external world, thereby combating the 2nd "law" (statistical tendency) of thermodynamics. Maybe an interesting/useful definition (which is somewhat arbitrary) also needs to involve something like consuming energy/resources from the environment.

Re: Einstein's relativity rules chemical bonds in heavy elements, new research shows

#137
post #7
post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sigma and Pi bonds are typically covered in AP Chemistry, even if the “why/how” is hand waved pretty heavily. The valence cloud shapes get wild for heavier atoms and bonds between two or more atoms add even more to the mix.

I had incredible difficulties with Chemistry, more than any other subject, because most everything was hand waved away, requiring mostly rote memorization. I could never get an intuitive understanding, partly because my profs seemingly refusing to think about things from a physics perspective. My physics prof was able to help with some of it. It was very odd. If I would have stuck with it, would things have improved?

Chemistry fundamentally is about producing a result. Physics, especially when you get into particles, is about explaining a result. Ultimately, chemistry, electronics,even civil engineering, is applied physics, but we are a long way from consolidating and closing the gaps. Empirical results stand in for complete understanding in the vast majority of engineering disciplines, both because complete understanding is not needed and also because we don’t have it yet. Fundamentally, chemistry is a variety of engineering discipline, being mostly an applied science.

Re: Einstein's relativity rules chemical bonds in heavy elements, new research shows

#138

> The increased nuclear mass causes orbiting electrons to speed up to a significant fraction of the speed of light, where the rules of Einstein’s theory of relativity are important. Fun fact: this is why mercury is liquid at room temperature. Its inner electrons move at close to 60% the speed of light, pulling in its outer electrons more tightly, making it harder for it to bond and be solid. (I am not a physicist, do…

I guess the more interesting question is why this doesn't happen for neighbouring elements in the periodic table?

It would be the element underneath it which is synthetic. But it is interesting that all the elements in that row are soft or brittle in pre form or in some compounds.

Re: Einstein's relativity rules chemical bonds in heavy elements, new research shows

#139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As you move up levels starting from physics (eg. physics-> chemistry-> biochemistry-> biology), each layer has several "laws" which are generally pretty established, but a causal connection between the layers is hard to provide satisfactorily. And that is how I think it'll always be, else we'll be expecting to explain Shakespeare's plays using physics. Also, this is where Rutherford's "all science is either physics o…

Fundamental physics is also empirical. It's that as you move up to more 'fuzzy' sciences, the 'laws' become less strict, less formal defined, and (most importantly) less reliable. Edit: and less universal. Physics underlies biology, chemistry, nuclear tech & more. Biology (so far) only applies to carbon-based life as we know it on Earth.

> and less universal

Yes, this is key in my mind. It's not really that the laws and definitions become less strict of themselves, it's that the subjects under study become less uniform. It's fine to study a few atoms in isolation and describe their features, but if you put a lot of them together they'd better be in a uniform lattice or your calculations will take more than a lifetime to complete. If you want to describe the interaction in a drop of water, you don't use the Standard Model to integrate over 3e22 baryon fields.

Yes, physics underlies all other fields. But fundamental physics is also completely untractable to solve problems in those other fields, even if Heisenberg would allow it.

Re: Einstein's relativity rules chemical bonds in heavy elements, new research shows

#140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, we've all seen the xkcd[1] but you've misunderstood it. Physics applies mathematics but mathematics cannot derive physics in the way that a complete physics (and a lot of compute) could derive chemistry and biochemistry. Math isn't attempting to describe a physical universe. It provides the substrate upon which such a description can be expressed and validated - found to be consistent with itself - but many vali…

> mathematics cannot derive physics thats just at the current state of the art...doesnt mean a complete maths cannot...its arguably debatable why physics follow some maths and why the specific constrains

I don't think that's true. Mathematics can model every conceivable universe; you cannot derive the values of c or G in our universe from a purely mathematical model. Even if there were a proof that the current values for cosmological constants are the only possible values, that proof would necessarily have to rely on lemmas from physics.
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