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Good Tools Are Invisible

gingerbill.org

231–240 of 305 posts

Re: Good Tools Are Invisible

#231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If we make a distinction between CLI apps and TUI apps, my interpretation is that the article was specifically talking about the latter. By a CLI app (with the emphasis on command line ) I mean something like grep, sort, cp, git, ls, tar, etc. The normal way of interacting with these is by writing commands on the shell, which means that if you know how to use it normally, you can also use it in a script. Which means…

You should not underestimate how confusing those CLI tools are to people who have never used them before. For example, I would argue that for someone with no experience, figuring out how to copy a file from one folder to another is easier in Windows Explorer than learning how to use cp.

> For example, I would argue that for someone with no experience, figuring out how to copy a file from one folder to another is easier in Windows Explorer than learning how to use cp.

I don't believe this.

If you find a person (well, two I guess for this experiment) with no computer experience and want to teach them how to copy files, your first step will be teaching them what is a file and how they are organized in the computer.

Explaining what a file is takes the same amount of time for both cases (we can ignore how devices and processes are files in Linux and how files in Windows contain many data streams and extra metadata).

In both cases you need to teach them the file system is hierarchical and folders can be nested and can contain files.

For Windows you have to teach them how to double click to open folders. They can double click "My Downloads" to see their downloads. They can double click "My Music" to see their music files.

For the CLI you have to teach them that `ls` can list the contents of a directory. They can `ls Downloads` to see their downloads. They can `ls Music` to see their music files.

For Windows you then teach them they can open multiple windows (assuming you want to copy from one folder to another folder). And you teach them they can click, hold and drag and drop a file to move it (but sometimes it will be copied when they do that) and they can hold in Control while dropping to copy the file to the destination instead. Or you teach them they can use Ctrl+C to mark a file for being copied and then navigate to the destination and use Ctrl+V to copy the file. Or you teach them to right click for the right click menu, and that "copy" means "mark this file for being copied", and that a right click in the middle of a window displaying the target folder lets them select "paste" which means "copy the marked file here".

For the CLI you teach them `cp Downloads/foo.mp3 Music/` copies foo.mp3 from their downloads to their music directory.

The CLI is also infinitely easier to help newbies use over the phone!

Re: Good Tools Are Invisible

#232
post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> People don't use vim because they enjoy puzzle solving. I didn't say that either nor even imply it, and you know that when you quote me afterwards. So huh?!?! > People don't use Linux because they enjoy tweaking config files and everybody else has too busy a life to do that. A lot of people, including younger myself, got into Linux and Android BECAUSE it was configurable and customizable. And even played around wit…

[flagged]

You can be less of a coward and reply to my comment, since you are talking about me personally, rather than mentioning me by name elsewhere.

gingerBill and I were disagreeing, sure, but at least we were arguing on topic. I fail to see what is insightful about your comment than just pointing and saying 'get a load of this guy.'

Thanks for your input, you can take a seat now.

Re: Good Tools Are Invisible

#234
post #111
post #81

Obsessive hacker tools like Emacs are not a productivity enhancer. But If you find them fun go for it. You are allowed to have fun. You are allowed to enjoy your environment. If tinkering with Emacs is fun for you go for it. It's prob not replacing mental cycles for "productive" work. It's replacing zoning out with social media or YouTube between productive work times. I can't justify using Emacs myself on a producti…

This is an objectively idiotic and uninformed take. Do you people think we spend our weekends tweaking our configs because that is how we get our fun? Some do, sure, the vast majority have created their config once and find themselves more productive compared to whatever alternative you might be suggesting. Configuring vim or eMacs is an investment, as you are likely to still see it around in 20 years. Being familiar…

I spend my weekends enjoying life and my family but I guess that’s just part of my objectively idiotic take on life.

Re: Good Tools Are Invisible

#236

I like TUIs because I can pipe the output of CLIs directly into them, and I don't have to leave my terminal environment. GUIs can't compete with that.

TUI and CLI isn't the same thing. A badly written TUI will fail to check isatty() on stdin and will dump ANSI escape codes, which are not trivial to remove from the output as they follow a format that has different formats, lengths and sentinels that denote the ending.

I'm fully aware they're not the same thing, I'll not sure what gave you the impression I think they are.

I agree that a badly written TUI is... badly written? Obviously I'm referring to well executed TUIs.

For example, I regularly pipe the result of ls, grep or fd into Helix then use multicursor editing to set up a script. You simply can't do that with a GUI.

Re: Good Tools Are Invisible

#238
Look, I'm sorry to be that guy. But if you're struggling to bulk edit text in vim, you're definitely holding it wrong.

And emacs isn't even in the same category of tools, though I understand why one might think it is.

My retraction aside, I agree that the BEST software is the one you never really think about. Raycast is a great, recent example for me. Or perhaps Keyboard Maestro. It takes some fiddling to get set up, but then it just becomes a part of how I use my Mac. I only notice it when it breaks because my flow breaks.

Re: Good Tools Are Invisible

#239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The things about multiple cursors is that you think about the processing while doing it, while most people using macros looks at the structure of the text first and then devise the macro. I wouldn’t say the latter is faster, but it’s a different mindset. And the other thing is that vim has the “dot” command to repeat your last edit. Similar to macros, you think about your local edit first, then about where to repeat…

> The things about multiple cursors is that you think about the processing while doing it That visual feedback is EXTREMELY useful because I learn of the edge cases to what I am editing in bulk (usually formatting code or tables or whatever) as I am editing it. When you do a macro, you have to try and get it right, and then try again from the start each time to get it right. `dot` et al are not enough in that regard.…

You're over-fixating on the misuse of macros and generalize that to make a statement about Vim [1], almost as if that's the only useful feature in Vim. There are more basic editing commands that are much simpler, quicker, and powerful. It's what is actually used most of the time.

Also, getting bulk editing perfect, including the edge cases, is inefficient regardless of the tools you use. For the majority of those cases, I would just combine simple search and replace (cgn), dot repeat (.), and undo plus skip (un) for the edge cases. Then jump back (N) to the edge cases and make manual edits. It's quick, provides instant visual feedback, and requires less cognitive work than trying to process it all at once. And that's the approach people likely have in mind when they mention dot repeat.

[1] Or at least stepping right close to it.

Re: Good Tools Are Invisible

#240
post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've never managed to make the terminal work for me. But I've been using windows since I was like 5 and I'm really bad at remembering shortcuts besides a handful of ones I use every day. > When you reach that point, you will be, on average, much more productive than an average GUI user How sure are you about that? I often watch streams of people using emacs or vim, with totally custom setups and it seems like a wash…

Absolutely no one ever has been shown to be more productive because they don’t use GUIs. It’s kind of preposterous to think that could be true.

That's a weird thing to say. GUI slows down me A LOT when I sometimes have to switch to it from my terminal for whatever reason. Where did you get your "absolutely no one" data point?
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