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The Lindy effect in software

clemsau.com

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Re: The Lindy effect in software

#21

Post by simianwords »

If we had followed this more seriously in the past, we would have still stuck on to writing C for enterprise applications and had way too many memory bugs. Aren’t we glad there was a demographic who said no to C and brought the revolutionary idea to use Java instead?

Couldn’t a Lindy enthusiast have gone “umm but isn’t Java too new and shouldn’t we just stick to C which is well trodden and understood??”

It’s easy to write sloganeering articles. But it doesn’t tell me anything specific.

Invoking Lindy is just bias to status quo. I prefer bias to progress but respecting chestertons fence.

Re: The Lindy effect in software

#22

Post by marginalia_nu »

slopinthebag wrote: post #9
uecker wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think this is what we want. We want people to maintain and incrementally improve existing software and tooling and not rewrite and change things all the time.

A rewrite doesn't need to actually change the public API or experience using the software. But by rewriting software, even in the same language we can learn from past mistakes and experiences and create better and more maintainable software.

More often the past mistake is rewriting software in a newer language.

Like I've worked places where the business ran off a layer cake of '80s tech, '90s tech that partially replaced the '80s tech, and '00s tech that partially replaced the '90s tech, and were now on their way to launch a big project to replace all that with '10s tech, a project doomed to run out of steam half way through (because legacy code got hands), inevitably leading to a codebase that consists of three failed attempts to rewrite the '80s codebase, and the '80s codebase.

As the functionality of the code was business critical, and no shift in behavior could be tolerated, they're never getting out of this mess, and would have been better off staying on '80s tech.

It's good for job security that's for certain.

Re: The Lindy effect in software

#23

Post by rf15 »

bee_rider wrote: post #7
rf15 wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I work in enterprise, and java still reigns supreme. You see some (very limited) cracks coming from other jvm languages, but that's all. Nobody talks about Rust, rarely about C.

Which enterprise? All the job postings I see are for C++ (Annoyingly. Fortran is better). Or Python obviously.

can confirm, some do C++ (more than C, I meant C as a language family in my original post)

Enterprise I've seen, all europe, deliberately vague: Banking, Telecoms, Trains, Insurance

Re: The Lindy effect in software

#24

Post by karmakurtisaani »

mrkeen wrote: post #14

Terrific writing. Just terrific. Copied verbatim: The Lindy effect in software The longer a tech has been around, the more robust it is seen as compared to more recent ones, we often talk about a technology’s maturity The C language SQL has been around for a while, https://antonz.org/fancy-ql/ JS libraries seem to come and goes

I somehow missed the sarcasm and went to read the article. Was a bit confused for a minute there..

Re: The Lindy effect in software

#25

Post by mansa10 »

simianwords wrote: post #21

If we had followed this more seriously in the past, we would have still stuck on to writing C for enterprise applications and had way too many memory bugs. Aren’t we glad there was a demographic who said no to C and brought the revolutionary idea to use Java instead? Couldn’t a Lindy enthusiast have gone “umm but isn’t Java too new and shouldn’t we just stick to C which is well trodden and understood??” It’s easy to…

I think the Lindy effect is less about making strong arguments about which tool to use in debates, and more about calling out and explaining a real life phenomenon.

I've invoked it in my job mostly to explain to younger developers why learning vim keybindings+terminal git usage while they have the most plasticity is most likely going to be a good bet for the remainder of their career, as editors, operating systems and associated keybindings & UI will change around them much more often than those fundamentals.

It's not a guarantee, and i wouldn't bet my entire business on the Lindy effect, but it is worth reflecting on it as an explanation of something that is paradoxical or not obvious.

Re: The Lindy effect in software

#26

Post by armchairhacker »

mrkeen wrote: post #14

Terrific writing. Just terrific. Copied verbatim: The Lindy effect in software The longer a tech has been around, the more robust it is seen as compared to more recent ones, we often talk about a technology’s maturity The C language SQL has been around for a while, https://antonz.org/fancy-ql/ JS libraries seem to come and goes

Still better than AI, it has personality and not paragraphs of empty prose

Re: The Lindy effect in software

#27

Post by simianwords »

mansa10 wrote: post #25
simianwords wrote: post #21

If we had followed this more seriously in the past, we would have still stuck on to writing C for enterprise applications and had way too many memory bugs. Aren’t we glad there was a demographic who said no to C and brought the revolutionary idea to use Java instead? Couldn’t a Lindy enthusiast have gone “umm but isn’t Java too new and shouldn’t we just stick to C which is well trodden and understood??” It’s easy to…

I think the Lindy effect is less about making strong arguments about which tool to use in debates, and more about calling out and explaining a real life phenomenon. I've invoked it in my job mostly to explain to younger developers why learning vim keybindings+terminal git usage while they have the most plasticity is most likely going to be a good bet for the remainder of their career, as editors, operating systems an…

I agree and the article uses Lindy not in descriptive but prescriptive level.

For prescriptive, I would use Chesterton's Fence https://fs.blog/chestertons-fence/

Re: The Lindy effect in software

#28

Post by devnonymous »

simianwords wrote: post #21

If we had followed this more seriously in the past, we would have still stuck on to writing C for enterprise applications and had way too many memory bugs. Aren’t we glad there was a demographic who said no to C and brought the revolutionary idea to use Java instead? Couldn’t a Lindy enthusiast have gone “umm but isn’t Java too new and shouldn’t we just stick to C which is well trodden and understood??” It’s easy to…

> Couldn’t a Lindy enthusiast have gone “umm but isn’t Java too new and shouldn’t we just stick to C which is well trodden and understood??”

I think people often misrepresent history because they view it with the benefit of hindsight. People who chose to use Java didn't do it to embrace a revolutionary idea, they were embracing an evolutionary one. It seemed like a natural optimization step, rather than a clean slate.

Most Jave devs were proficient C devs who found the idea of a platform independent C quite appealing.

That's the Lindy effect. C (the essence of it) survives in Java and right up to JS/python/go.

In contrast consider Pascal, Fotran, Perl, COBOL, (and dare I say ... Lisp ?)

Re: The Lindy effect in software

#29

Post by thunderbong »

simianwords wrote: post #21

If we had followed this more seriously in the past, we would have still stuck on to writing C for enterprise applications and had way too many memory bugs. Aren’t we glad there was a demographic who said no to C and brought the revolutionary idea to use Java instead? Couldn’t a Lindy enthusiast have gone “umm but isn’t Java too new and shouldn’t we just stick to C which is well trodden and understood??” It’s easy to…

A lot of the article is extremely useful for people creating software libraries, IMHO.

Under the section -

"Applying the Lindy effect to software engineering"

The suggestions are -

- Prudent Adoption

- Stick to Proven Foundation

- Plan for Longevity

- Embrace Evolution, Not Revolution

Re: The Lindy effect in software

#30

Post by orf »

mansa10 wrote: post #25
simianwords wrote: post #21

If we had followed this more seriously in the past, we would have still stuck on to writing C for enterprise applications and had way too many memory bugs. Aren’t we glad there was a demographic who said no to C and brought the revolutionary idea to use Java instead? Couldn’t a Lindy enthusiast have gone “umm but isn’t Java too new and shouldn’t we just stick to C which is well trodden and understood??” It’s easy to…

I think the Lindy effect is less about making strong arguments about which tool to use in debates, and more about calling out and explaining a real life phenomenon. I've invoked it in my job mostly to explain to younger developers why learning vim keybindings+terminal git usage while they have the most plasticity is most likely going to be a good bet for the remainder of their career, as editors, operating systems an…

> I've invoked it in my job mostly to explain to younger developers why learning vim keybindings+terminal git usage

Interesting - I see it as the opposite: learning the git CLI is pointless. It’s slow, clunky and it doesn’t teach you any of the very interesting inner-workings of Git.

There are much better things to spend time learning, especially if your editor has a native git integration.

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