Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Good Tools Are Invisible

gingerbill.org

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

171–180 of 305 posts

Re: Good Tools Are Invisible

#171

Post by bch »

touisteur wrote: post #142
ventana wrote: post #11

As a long time terminal user, it does not surprise me much when people just don't get it . The discussion often goes like this: — In a terminal, I can do so-and-so with a simple command — Well, in my FrobnicatorStudio, there's a shortcut Ctrl+Alt+So for that and this can go forever, going into pretty much useless comparisons like "in vim, I can delete 24 lines by pressing four keys" (no Sublime user ever needs that)…

I have a similar relationship with wireshark. I understand the use of a live capture and display and the attraction of the click GUI. But at some point I just figured I was wasting so much time in there. Switched tshark and jq or good old bash/awk/grep and gnuplot, back to the command-line, then python for batteries, still using the output of tshark... and then ended writing a pcap(and ng) parser with ethernet-ip-udp…

Then your manager asks you to wrap it in a GUI so your coworkers can use it, and the cycle is complete.

Re: Good Tools Are Invisible

#172

Post by frollogaston »

TacticalCoder wrote: post #137
ventana wrote: post #11

As a long time terminal user, it does not surprise me much when people just don't get it . The discussion often goes like this: — In a terminal, I can do so-and-so with a simple command — Well, in my FrobnicatorStudio, there's a shortcut Ctrl+Alt+So for that and this can go forever, going into pretty much useless comparisons like "in vim, I can delete 24 lines by pressing four keys" (no Sublime user ever needs that)…

> — Well, in my FrobnicatorStudio, there's a shortcut Ctrl+Alt+So for that When I get those people typically I'll switch to Emacs (it's always open), use dired and rename 20 files at once, using either a keyboard macro I make on the spot or using a regexp replace. This usually not only get them to shut up for good, they also typically then see me as the "computer wizard". I demo'ed some terminal (piping command calls…

That and Python. LLMs will use one-off Py scripts for anything on the complicated side.

Re: Good Tools Are Invisible

#173

Post by wpm »

overgard wrote: post #128
ventana wrote: post #11

As a long time terminal user, it does not surprise me much when people just don't get it . The discussion often goes like this: — In a terminal, I can do so-and-so with a simple command — Well, in my FrobnicatorStudio, there's a shortcut Ctrl+Alt+So for that and this can go forever, going into pretty much useless comparisons like "in vim, I can delete 24 lines by pressing four keys" (no Sublime user ever needs that)…

I don't think your logic is off, but I also think that the FrobnosticatorStudio people have a point. The thing is, yes, the terminal gives you infinitely more capabilities but you probably have like, 20 actual things you do regularly? The learning curve makes it a hard sell when those 20 things are probably all you need. Like, sometimes I'll do something like this if I'm in a terminal and I want to find a build scrip…

My shell is configured to show me previews of commands that match from my history. Depending on how long ago I typed the cat command, it might be "cat -> tab -> return"

Re: Good Tools Are Invisible

#174

Post by bch »

wofo wrote: post #33
lcnPylGDnU4H9OF wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> make the users fall into a pit of success I don't have anything else to add but I thought this was a wonderfully evocative phrase.

Here's some additional context on the phrase, for today's lucky ten thousand[0]: https://blog.codinghorror.com/falling-into-the-pit-of-succes... [0]: https://xkcd.com/1053/

Good read, and I think a sort of living mindset, or “process, not product”, though seems to be follow-on/reaction to Perl’s TMTOWTDI (Tim Toadie)[0], and Python’s response(“There should be one-- and preferably only one --obvious way to do it”)[1].

[0] https://perl.fandom.com/wiki/TIMTOWTDI

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zen_of_Python#Principles

Re: Good Tools Are Invisible

#175

Post by miguel_martin »

gingerBill wrote: post #155
skeater15 wrote: post #153

I get the sentiment and agree with it but vim has multiple cursors. I'm sure gingerbill is aware of this so to use that example is a little strange.

Vim does not have multiple cursors which can be placed ANYWHERE even multiple on the same line and at any offset. You are clearly not aware of what Vim actually offers.

To be fair to the commenter, you didn't provide any details in the example you provided. For all we (the readers) know, Visual Block mode would have worked in the situation you are describing. I have to assume not, but it's not clear from the article.

Vim macros are not that hard to write, but I do agree with you, visual feedback is better. It can be annoying to have to re-record a macro, that's why I tend to use :s (search & replace) or Visual Block mode over using a macro (most of the time I don't need a macro).

I understand you state vim is "just an example", but you use this example as the main backbone of your article. Add more detail. You're arguing with vague anecdotes which requires the reader to read between the lines.

An aside: visual feedback, multi-cursor support and sane defaults is likely what led to new modal editors being created, such as Helix and Kakoune.

Re: Good Tools Are Invisible

#176

Post by [deleted] »

curtisblaine wrote: post #3

What is a good tool that's invisible? I'm genuinely curious. All tools I've used are either simple and heavily limited (so, not "invisible" because hard things are hard) or powerful but heavily specialized (so, not "invisible" because the learning curve is very evident). I feel the trade off is inescapable.

[deleted]

Re: Good Tools Are Invisible

#177

Post by metaltyphoon »

mrbonner wrote: post #158

I agree with Odin creator here. I am not sure when or why we have come to a conclusion in our professional industry that "real software engineer uses vim/emacs/insert your CLI editor here" type of mental model. Is it just the testosterone level speaking here?

This must be an online thing. In 15+ years of career I haven't yet heard "real software engineer...". If you get your work done no one cares how the hell you accomplish it

Re: Good Tools Are Invisible

#178

Post by bombela »

jrimbault wrote: post #13

Having designed a good number of internal tools for teams of developers I couldn't agree more. Earlier I had the tendency to "leave the guts" open, thinking my users were developers and would want that. All it did was put obstacles in my teammates actually doing their work. My teammates must use the tools I made for them to achieve work the company needs them to do, they don't want, nor should they want to, fiddle wi…

And before any major change, add a `--v2` for early adopters and `--v1` as default. Nobody should notice anything on `--v1`, any regression must be fixed imediately. Flip `--v2` as default, leaving `--v1` for the unforseen. Until you can finally get rid of them.

This helps being as invisible as possible.

Re: Good Tools Are Invisible

#179

Post by justinhj »

The very first paragraph about macros taking a while is wrong. They are really useful and once in your muscle memory a near instantly accessible solution to small tedious tasks. This is true in Neovim and Emacs.

I also don't use these editors for identity. That is also dumb. I use them because it's fun and they are invisible tools once mastered.

Re: Good Tools Are Invisible

#180

Post by jibal »

TacticalCoder wrote: post #137
ventana wrote: post #11

As a long time terminal user, it does not surprise me much when people just don't get it . The discussion often goes like this: — In a terminal, I can do so-and-so with a simple command — Well, in my FrobnicatorStudio, there's a shortcut Ctrl+Alt+So for that and this can go forever, going into pretty much useless comparisons like "in vim, I can delete 24 lines by pressing four keys" (no Sublime user ever needs that)…

> — Well, in my FrobnicatorStudio, there's a shortcut Ctrl+Alt+So for that When I get those people typically I'll switch to Emacs (it's always open), use dired and rename 20 files at once, using either a keyboard macro I make on the spot or using a regexp replace. This usually not only get them to shut up for good, they also typically then see me as the "computer wizard". I demo'ed some terminal (piping command calls…

When appropriate I use M-S-! or M-S-| to run a shell command in emacs.
Post reply on HN