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Einstein's relativity rules chemical bonds in heavy elements, new research shows

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Re: Einstein's relativity rules chemical bonds in heavy elements, new research shows

#11

Post by aaaronic »

nomel wrote: post #7
aaaronic wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sigma and Pi bonds are typically covered in AP Chemistry, even if the “why/how” is hand waved pretty heavily. The valence cloud shapes get wild for heavier atoms and bonds between two or more atoms add even more to the mix.

I had incredible difficulties with Chemistry, more than any other subject, because most everything was hand waved away, requiring mostly rote memorization. I could never get an intuitive understanding, partly because my profs seemingly refusing to think about things from a physics perspective. My physics prof was able to help with some of it. It was very odd. If I would have stuck with it, would things have improved?

Yes and no. It depends which branch of chemistry you world have chosen to go down. Physical Chemistry certainly improves a fair amount of the hand waving, but even there the underlying physics is simplified fairly often (as I understand it — I went straight Physics and dabbled in Chemistry from the other side).

Re: Einstein's relativity rules chemical bonds in heavy elements, new research shows

#12

Post by nerdsniper »

aaaronic wrote: post #11
nomel wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I had incredible difficulties with Chemistry, more than any other subject, because most everything was hand waved away, requiring mostly rote memorization. I could never get an intuitive understanding, partly because my profs seemingly refusing to think about things from a physics perspective. My physics prof was able to help with some of it. It was very odd. If I would have stuck with it, would things have improved?

Yes and no. It depends which branch of chemistry you world have chosen to go down. Physical Chemistry certainly improves a fair amount of the hand waving, but even there the underlying physics is simplified fairly often (as I understand it — I went straight Physics and dabbled in Chemistry from the other side).

As a chemical engineer, one of the signs of maturity was myself and each of my classmates individually coming to accept and embrace the inevitable “magic coefficient”.

The curious always wanted to know why some magic coefficient was there. Where did it come from? How is it measured / calculated? How to derive the magic coefficient?

Eventually you learn that it’s turtles all the down. You can pick apart the magic coefficient and dive into the nuanced physics that its derived from…but then you still end up with a new magic coefficient.

So eventually, the curious students learn that the mysteries are out there for when you want to go out and explore them. But otherwise, we pick our level of abstraction for the problem we’re currently working on and accept the magic coefficients that apply to that level of abstraction.

The real trick is knowing the conditional boundaries when those magic coefficients no longed apply and you either need different ones or “here be dragons”.

Re: Einstein's relativity rules chemical bonds in heavy elements, new research shows

#13

Post by abecedarius »

nomel wrote: post #7
aaaronic wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sigma and Pi bonds are typically covered in AP Chemistry, even if the “why/how” is hand waved pretty heavily. The valence cloud shapes get wild for heavier atoms and bonds between two or more atoms add even more to the mix.

I had incredible difficulties with Chemistry, more than any other subject, because most everything was hand waved away, requiring mostly rote memorization. I could never get an intuitive understanding, partly because my profs seemingly refusing to think about things from a physics perspective. My physics prof was able to help with some of it. It was very odd. If I would have stuck with it, would things have improved?

I don't know, I'm not very chemical, but fwiw: a friend and I were favorably impressed with Linus Pauling's general chemistry textbook. It tries to supply enough of the physics for the chemistry to make sense. We only studied for a few weeks before moving on, though, and it's a big fat book.

Re: Einstein's relativity rules chemical bonds in heavy elements, new research shows

#14

Post by nanolith »

Wait... wasn't it already understood that relativity influences electron orbits of heavy elements? I clearly remember being taught some of this in physics, in the mid-noughties.

For instance, we know that gold gets its color from relativistic effects.

https://physics.aps.org/articles/v10/s3

Re: Einstein's relativity rules chemical bonds in heavy elements, new research shows

#15

Post by ahahs »

nomel wrote: post #7
aaaronic wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sigma and Pi bonds are typically covered in AP Chemistry, even if the “why/how” is hand waved pretty heavily. The valence cloud shapes get wild for heavier atoms and bonds between two or more atoms add even more to the mix.

I had incredible difficulties with Chemistry, more than any other subject, because most everything was hand waved away, requiring mostly rote memorization. I could never get an intuitive understanding, partly because my profs seemingly refusing to think about things from a physics perspective. My physics prof was able to help with some of it. It was very odd. If I would have stuck with it, would things have improved?

that's because chemistry is heavily involved in describing the nature of how elements and molecules interact with each other. There has to be some element of understanding that nothing is quite as clear because we use experiments and their conclusions to slowly but surely eliminate some theories while keeping others until disproven.

Re: Einstein's relativity rules chemical bonds in heavy elements, new research shows

#16

Post by loeg »

aaaronic wrote: post #5
kristianp wrote: post #2

> The increased nuclear mass causes orbiting electrons to speed up to a significant fraction of the speed of light, where the rules of Einstein’s theory of relativity are important. > In the relativistic regime, an electron’s spin — the magnetic moment that points either up or down — and the electron’s orbit are no longer independent of each other, a state known as spin-orbit coupling. Interesting stuff. I've never h…

Sigma and Pi bonds are typically covered in AP Chemistry, even if the “why/how” is hand waved pretty heavily. The valence cloud shapes get wild for heavier atoms and bonds between two or more atoms add even more to the mix.

Granted I took AP Chem 20 years ago, but I don't remember those names (sigma and pi bonds) being covered at all. (I got a 5 on the test, for what it's worth.)

Re: Einstein's relativity rules chemical bonds in heavy elements, new research shows

#17

Post by Diogenesian »

nanolith wrote: post #14

Wait... wasn't it already understood that relativity influences electron orbits of heavy elements? I clearly remember being taught some of this in physics, in the mid-noughties. For instance, we know that gold gets its color from relativistic effects. https://physics.aps.org/articles/v10/s3

Seems to be the first time this was confirmed via direct experimental observation of the orbitals:

  “This idea that relativity is important in heavy elements has been around since the 1970s,” said Lai-Sheng Wang, a professor of chemistry at Brown and the study’s corresponding author. “But we show direct spectroscopic evidence that what we learned in high school about chemical bonding isn’t true in heavy elements."

Re: Einstein's relativity rules chemical bonds in heavy elements, new research shows

#18

Post by marcosdumay »

nomel wrote: post #7
aaaronic wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sigma and Pi bonds are typically covered in AP Chemistry, even if the “why/how” is hand waved pretty heavily. The valence cloud shapes get wild for heavier atoms and bonds between two or more atoms add even more to the mix.

I had incredible difficulties with Chemistry, more than any other subject, because most everything was hand waved away, requiring mostly rote memorization. I could never get an intuitive understanding, partly because my profs seemingly refusing to think about things from a physics perspective. My physics prof was able to help with some of it. It was very odd. If I would have stuck with it, would things have improved?

The physics that predicts chemistry is about 100 years old. Almost nothing people study up to high-school is that recent, and that modern physics tends to be really hard.

Re: Einstein's relativity rules chemical bonds in heavy elements, new research shows

#19

Post by ThrowawayTestr »

nanolith wrote: post #14

Wait... wasn't it already understood that relativity influences electron orbits of heavy elements? I clearly remember being taught some of this in physics, in the mid-noughties. For instance, we know that gold gets its color from relativistic effects. https://physics.aps.org/articles/v10/s3

There's even a Wikipedia page for it https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relativistic_quantum_chemistry

Re: Einstein's relativity rules chemical bonds in heavy elements, new research shows

#20

Post by 762236 »

nanolith wrote: post #14

Wait... wasn't it already understood that relativity influences electron orbits of heavy elements? I clearly remember being taught some of this in physics, in the mid-noughties. For instance, we know that gold gets its color from relativistic effects. https://physics.aps.org/articles/v10/s3

Gold electrons at inner orbits travel at a large fraction of the speed of light, which is why gold isn't a silver color. That is really neat.
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