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Late Bronze Age Collapse

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Re: Late Bronze Age Collapse

#201

Post by bamboozled »

tsoukase wrote: post #199

As a Greek I feel proud that we passed through all history tides during our high times: multiple cycles of thriving and decline, the last one being the Classical century of 5th BC, then the Hellenistic period of Alexander until we passed the baton of civilization to the Romans. This lasted for a full thousand years until a little before Jesus birth and it continued in Europe and the rest of the world in the same way…

It's why I love visiting Greece so much, you can feel the history slapping you in the face and it's an awesome feeling. It's a wonderful place.

Re: Late Bronze Age Collapse

#202

Post by marking-time »

whall6 wrote: post #152
marking-time wrote: post #134

The study of the LBAC is compelling these days because of the similarities to our present day situation. Other commenters have noted the the possibility of AI driven collapse, but another possibility is our dependence on oil. Bronze is the combination copper+tin. Copper is common in earths composition, but tin is much more scarce. The scarcity of tin necessitated the expansive trade networks to acquire the resource.…

I'm very curious what part of the article you're drawing on to suggest that their reliance on copper and tin was the cause of the collapse. The article that I read seemed to suggest it was climate related. I have no idea where you're from, but oil is not what it once was, especially in the United States. In fact, we have a very recent case study substantiating this claim: the closure of the Strait of Hormuz. The Stra…

As mentioned by the other commenter,it is called the _bronze age_, so the components of the bronze alloy are part of the discussion. My point is that extended supply chains are vulnerable. And yes, in my view climate was a proximate trigger. However, once triggered, the collapse became more impactful because of the extended supply chains.

> I have no idea where you're from

I'm from the US and looking out my window to the street below I notice that that more than 90% of the vehicles are still running on petroleum. The impact of high petroleum prices seems obvious to me.

An unrelated question, but why do you think petroleum prices are not correlating with with the straight closure. If, as you opine, the world has changed then why did prices rise in the first place? Was it market speculation based on an outdated worldview, or was it something else? I do not know.

[edit:corrected my formatting error]

Re: Late Bronze Age Collapse

#203

Post by Amezarak »

Telemakhos wrote: post #200
Amezarak wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Denying the possible, even likely, historicity of Romulus and Remus is silly, yes.

Recognizing that the exposure myth of Romulus and Remus is an analogue of the exposure myth of Moses, of Cyrus, and of a host of other famous figures gets one thinking that early Roman history and early Jewish history, among others, map common Eurasian stories onto particular agendas.

Or perhaps its because infanticide via exposure was a very common and widespread practice for most of human history.

Either way, there's a large gulf between "Romulus and Remus weren't real" and "Romulus and Remus weren't exposed as infants." You obviously don't believe Cyrus is fictional.

Re: Late Bronze Age Collapse

#204

Post by zoobaloo »

cogman10 wrote: post #141
zoobaloo wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Respectfully, this is a stronger claim than I think anyone can make. A more reasonable claim would be: "we cannot verify much of what's in Exodus using sources external to the Torah/Pentateuch." It's fair to also say something like "if X happened, it's surprising that we would not see physical evidence of it." If you're interested in the topic of the Old Testament in general, I highly recommend [Ancient Near Eastern…

> Respectfully, this is a stronger claim than I think anyone can make. The only reason to treat this with kid gloves is because a large portion of the population believes in it. Nobody has a problem saying that "Romulus and Remus is an entirely fictional account it's not based on any real historical events." The stronger claim is a valid one to make because the primary source doesn't have any corroboration.

I'd encourage you to re-read my comment and consider that you may have jumped to conclusions about what I'm trying to say.

> Nobody has a problem saying that "Romulus and Remus is an entirely fictional account it's not based on any real historical events."

I wouldn't go so far as to say this. We have artifacts and historical texts talking about them, so we at least know that Romulus and Remus are figures that ancient humans talked about.

If we had a time machine, could we go back in time and meet them? If there were two guys named that who generally did the things the Romans thought, were they actually raised by wolves? No idea with the former. The latter sounds unusual.

My point is that there are more interesting questions to ask than these. The book I recommended does a good job of this. It's a good read if you're interested in the cultural backdrop of the ancient near east.

Re: Late Bronze Age Collapse

#205

Post by Amezarak »

cogman10 wrote: post #168
Amezarak wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Denying the possible, even likely, historicity of Romulus and Remus is silly, yes.

Likely? That's wild. What's the corroborating evidence from ~750BC documenting their existence? Heck, where's that evidence from 650BC?

> What's the corroborating evidence from ~750BC documenting their existence? Heck, where's that evidence from 650BC?

This is a totally unfruitful line of inquiry, unless you are an academic historian doomed to publish-or-perish; in that case, it's perfectly understandable that you have to make these arguments as part of your career.

Better questions, when it comes to ancient history are:

1. Is there any negative evidence? 2. Is there any reason to expect more evidence than what we have? 3. Did ancient historians with better sources believe it? 4. Is there anything inherently unlikely about the idea?

In this case there isn't any negative evidence, there's no reason to expect more evidence than what we have, ancient historians believed various versions of the same basic story, and there's absolutely nothing crazy about it - someone had to found the polity, and to declare them fictional results in there still existing a first king of Rome, just a guy with a different name for whom there is no evidence at all. You can certainly apply (4) to specific details of the different stories - for example, it seems much more likely Romulus was murdered by Senators than raptured by Jupiter, though perhaps something altogether different happened. There's even very weak archeological evidence - a chamber was found in an area where Romulus' (empty) tomb was supposed to be, although archeologists are debating over whether it really is that.

Re: Late Bronze Age Collapse

#206

Post by krapp »

AnimalMuppet wrote: post #189
Brendinooo wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah. > witness something that defies all natural explanation > write about it > people say it cannot have happened because it was a supernatural element You see this too with stuff like "anything that predicted the destruction of the temple must have been written after because no one can predict the future." Like, the whole point of huge chunks of the Bible is that world-altering supernatural events actually happene…

I think that this arises from one of two presuppositions: Either 1) the physical universe is all that exists, or 2) science is the only way to learn truth. (These two presuppositions are not strictly independent of each other.) These are presuppositions . They are assumptions that you make at the start of the game, that you build your interpretation of the world on. They are not empirically proven in any way. (For #2…

They didn't happen.

Impossible things by definition didn't happen.

People observe and record all sorts of crazy things all the time, including for all of the religions you don't believe in, but that doesn't mean anything. You're just asking people to assume what the Bible says about the supernatural is real, and offering the lack of scientific evidence as supporting evidence for the Bible. I don't think you understand how profoundly unconvincing that argument is to people who don't already operate under the theistic model of reality that you do.

If you're trying to convert people with apologetics, this specific line of attack isn't going to be effective.

Re: Late Bronze Age Collapse

#207

Post by flir »

the-smug-one wrote: post #119
flir wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm really annoyed that Patrick gave up on that. I mean, I know he's been doing it a decade, and I can't chain him to a desk, and I'm being entitled, but...

It was cancelled by Amazon when they purchased Wondery, IIUC. He's got "Past Lives" podcast now!

Well that sucks. Thanks for the update.

I listened to a couple. The first (current?) run on Past Lives was about slavery, and was a bit too "misery porn" for me. The historical fiction component of the show was always my least favourite bit.

Re: Late Bronze Age Collapse

#208

Post by Retric »

reactordev wrote: post #56
Retric wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Filed corn is harvested at a different time resulting in a dryer product. But yes if people get hungry enough, field corn easily qualifies as actual food.

There are 4 types of corn. Dimple/dent corn, pop corn, sweet corn, and flint corn. Each variety can be eaten. Prepared differently of course as they have different starches and flavors but the vast majority of corn fields in the United States grow dent corn for feed and biofuels.

Fair point, there’s many types of corn but for anyone interested.

Sweet Corn: For Fresh Eating and therefore harvested with a high moisture content which hurts preservation without freezing and total yield.

Dimple is a Field corn, harvested later resulting in a dryer product, lasts longer and has a higher yield.

Flint Corn: Mostly decorative as it looks cool, but again still edible after grinding.

Heirloom: lots of shapes and sizes but significantly lower yield.

Popcorn: A tiny slice of the market but pops when heated.

Re: Late Bronze Age Collapse

#209

Post by Brendinooo »

krapp wrote: post #206
AnimalMuppet wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that this arises from one of two presuppositions: Either 1) the physical universe is all that exists, or 2) science is the only way to learn truth. (These two presuppositions are not strictly independent of each other.) These are presuppositions . They are assumptions that you make at the start of the game, that you build your interpretation of the world on. They are not empirically proven in any way. (For #2…

They didn't happen. Impossible things by definition didn't happen. People observe and record all sorts of crazy things all the time, including for all of the religions you don't believe in, but that doesn't mean anything. You're just asking people to assume what the Bible says about the supernatural is real, and offering the lack of scientific evidence as supporting evidence for the Bible. I don't think you understan…

>Impossible things by definition didn't happen.

Can things happen that are possible via mechanisms you don't understand, or are incapable of grasping because of your sensory/intellectual limitations?

>You're just asking people to assume what the Bible says about the supernatural is real

I don't think that's what happened there.

>offering the lack of scientific evidence as supporting evidence for the Bible

No, the point is that the scientific method is not the only way to prove that things in the past happened.

>to people who don't already operate under the theistic model of reality that you do

How would you explain yourself to a two-dimensional person, and reveal yourself to its world?

Re: Late Bronze Age Collapse

#210

Post by akiselev »

stymaar wrote: post #198
akiselev wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's my fault, I should have prefaced that I'm just talking about the US. I have no idea what the situation is like in Europe (for some reason I assumed biofuels weren't big there). Due to US density and geography, most marginal land here wouldn't be returned to little more than pasture. It depends on the state but most of that land was never forest to begin with. > Most crops in the modern world run an engineered…

> What do you mean by engineered? In a pasture for instance, grass can grow because the plant incorporate enough organic matter in the soil to be consumed by microorganisms that will in return fixate the nitrogen from the air into nitrates that can be consumed by the plant. Then you have some equilibrium-ish (it depends on the seasons and the precipitation so it's not an actual equilibrium) amount of nitrogen and org…

I think at that point the phrase "engineered soil" loses all utility. We've been engineering soil with domesticated herd animals since prehistory, bringing fertilizer from pasture to arable land at the very least. If we look further at the most recent archaeological research on cultivation, there's growing evidence that soil engineering is how societies move from cultivation-assisted hunter gatherers to fully sedentary agriculture (and the strongest evidence, i.e. from extant isolated tribes in jungles, is that even the so called hunter gatherers participate in extensive soil engineering to support cultivation).
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