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Computation as a universal and fundamental concept

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51–60 of 183 posts

Re: Computation as a universal and fundamental concept

#51

From my naive pov: Related to computation is the concept of state (I know, functional languages can get away without it, sort of). I always wondered how the universe “knows” the mass of the sun. If there are some underlying functions/computations “running” in the background to keep planets moving and so on, and if the mass of planets is a key element in such computations… then either: the mass is calculated “on the f…

I think it’s easier to conceive of it like this: Each point in spacetime IS storage. Storage can be queried by interacting with it (in a variety of ways), though the process of querying affects the value not only of the querier, but also the queried, which may have side-effects as well. The interaction itself is the computation.

A simple example for the computation: It’s like placing boxes next to each other. Yes I could say 1 box + 3 boxes = 4 boxes, via explicit calculation. I could also simply place 1 box next to three boxes, and without having to explicitly calculate, by nature of the interaction, the result (4 boxes) has been produced

There is no background computation or storage. The universe IS computation and storage. Each spacetime quanta IS storage, and each interaction IS computation.

Re: Computation as a universal and fundamental concept

#53
post #45
post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thank you for your insightful answer, in reduction; "Don't fight a god, you won't win, and you'll definitely die in the process!" The approach you describe though is brute force. I don't think (if there even is an answer to this problem) that it can be brute forced; that's where you run into the limits of hardware/computation/energy and start talking about timeframes which exceed the life of the universe. I think bru…

There is no general solution other than brute force. That's not a terribly difficult extension of the halting problem, it just takes more paperwork to deal with the edge cases, but you'll get to that result. The same basic technique works: Your supposed solution to the problem is itself some finite program, and you can feed it the "I halt only if I don't halt" problem too. The difference is that brute force is a solu…

Thanks for the link, great read. I think I get you here; in the context of a DSL where it's impossible to travel more instructions than X, suddenly you don't have a halting problem anymore as you've artificially limited that language's ability to travel beyond a known/fixed set of states.

The second you wield a language which has constructs like Haskell, where in theory you can iterate over an infinite list of items (thinking about it even any language where for i in input_var is possible); the halting problem hits you in the face like a brick.

Its almost a chicken and the egg problem, where you can't know how long it will run for/whether it will halt without already knowing the answer, but if you knew the answer, you wouldn't need the program to find it.

My head is spinning.

Re: Computation as a universal and fundamental concept

#54
post #7
post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I am wrong, please pardon. I suspect I am. But was this comment edited by Claude? I ask specifically because it is well written, substantive, all which is expected here, but the "push back" part, to me, must be a) an artifact of Claude, either by osmotic assimilation (Which is happening to many innocent users) or b) Claude itself. Feel free to flag this comment if I get an answer. I do want to know.

No Claude was not involved in any way in me writing it, and honestly it's kind of getting depressing how many comments are constantly questioning peoples use of LLMs.

The other day, while reading, my AI-dar triggered on some typical claudisms, but then I remembered I was reading from a paper book that was printed in 1997...

Re: Computation as a universal and fundamental concept

#55
I'd have to look deeper into his views, but I've already come across what seem like similar claims that try to attribute computation to the laws of physics or to matter in general or whatever.

However, these rest on category errors. Consider two characterizations of computation:

1. A mental process constituted by logical and intentional acts.

2. A mathematical model or formalism (or a set of formally equivalent formalisms).

In the case of (1), intentionality rules out computation as an extra-mental phenomenon. Things in the world aren't about something else; they just are what they are. But computation as a mental act is about something else. To claim otherwise would be like claiming deduction is a broad feature of reality, which is effectively some kind of panpsychism.

In the case of (2), if it's a mathematical model, then either by definition it doesn't exist outside the mind as such, or it must be instantiated in some objective manner. The trouble with finding instantiations is that it's not clear what constitutes an instantiation. Can you find correspondences? Sure. In fact, our physical computing machines correspond to these models in some way. But instantiation is more than mere correspondence, and this becomes even more the case when you consider that the lambda calculus corresponds to the Turing machine.

Another problem is that even mathematical models of computation cannot be said to encode mathematical operations as such. Is a Turing machine moving symbols around on an abstract tape actually adding two numbers? I would say that it is merely simulating the addition by producing results that afford that kind of interpretation.

Re: Computation as a universal and fundamental concept

#56
post #32

Is 'computation' really universal and fundamental? Turing machines, lambda calculus, algorithmic notations, they're all human-made formalisms. Are the halting problem and the limits of computability actually constraints that exist only within these human-made formal systems? When we constrain a formalism to reduce complexity, it feels like necessity emerges from within those constraints. For example, when we say 'CRU…

You sound like you believe in philosophical skepticism. Tell me: can a map ever properly describe the territory? When would a map properly describe the territory? (Can a theory ever properly describe reality? What does a theory need to properly describe reality?)

We know that universal Turing machines can emulate other Turing machines. Weirdos like Wolfram believe that a universal Turing machine can emulate reality. In a quick skim of this lecture series, the presenter doesn't talk about that, rather he just calls computation a scientific principal (universal and fundamental in the sense of physical laws, not fundamental in the sense of emulating reality on a computer).

Re: Computation as a universal and fundamental concept

#57
I like how every time a new technology is invented and becomes big, people start to think it explains everything. Like how in the 16th/17th centuries some people thought the universe was a big clock. Or how in the 19th centuries people thought the universe was like a big steam engine. Or now we think the universe is a big computer.

Not saying this is wrong or that I've watched all of the lectures above or anything, but it's just funny to imagine that aliens might look at us the same way we could look at a monkey society saying that the universe is like a big one of those rocks they use to smash nuts open.

Computation and information really does seem universal though, so this is just a funny thought and not serious commentary.

Re: Computation as a universal and fundamental concept

#58
post #10

For those that are unfamiliar, Tim Roughgarden is a phenomenal instructor, and has made significant contributions to the field of algorithmic game theory, which has strong connections to a lot of the work he appears to be doing here. I highly recommend his excellent introductory lectures on the subject, especially if you're interested in pursuing his ideas here more rigorously: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TM_QFmQ…

I loved his Algorithms course on Coursera which I did during the brief moment Stanford MOOCs were all free. So useful for a non-CS grad doing any kind of algorithmic programming.

Those were good days.

Re: Computation as a universal and fundamental concept

#59
post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Recently it's been shown that there are real, physical processes which are undecidable I want to push back a bit on this claim along two dimensions. Imagine a physical Turing machine built out of atoms, gears, levers, and an electron parked on the read/write head and ask whether that electron ever crosses some fixed plane in space, which it does only when the machine enters its halt configuration. That's now a purel…

I may be misremembering Godel's proof or misunderstanding your last paragraph, but I thought Godel's proof actually presented a specific undecidable statement. The hope then was that somehow undecidable statements could be cordoned off from decidable statements, and Turing's result showed that that wasn't possible. Perhaps that's what you mean by "the nonexistence of a single algorithm that correctly answers every in…

It's a gap between physics and mathematics. Undecidable statements exist mathematically, but don't exist physically: mathematics and physics have different concepts of existence. Ironically, even mathematical universe hypothesis deliberately limits mathematics-as-physics to specifically resemble physics of a spontaneous material world, and this limitation is just an axiom.

Re: Computation as a universal and fundamental concept

#60

There are a lot of long comments basically saying what I am about to say so I will try to keep this brief: Computation is a metaphysically universal and fundamental concept, since metaphysics is (tautologically) the domain of humans and we use symbolic communication. So of course very general theories of symbolic processes (e.g. Turing machines) are pertinent to the symbolic methodology we use to understand scientifi…

This is a misconception. It’s more fundamental than that. There’s a fundamental connection between (Shannon) information theory and thermodynamics. The Landau Limit, whether blackholes can destroy information or not, quantum mechanics, etc.

Information is actually tangible. It’s not just an analogy or a coincidence that the word “entropy” is a word used in both physics and computer science (information theory). Thermodynamics, mind you, is perhaps THE most fundamental elements of physics and how the universe works.

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