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Good Tools Are Invisible

gingerbill.org

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Re: Good Tools Are Invisible

#51

Post by ramses0 »

There was an old blog post comparing pianos to text editors.

A "simpler" piano would only have white keys, but to a piano expert the piano appears invisible (and powerful) after the initial learning curve.

I think an important attribute of mastery is related to consistency over time. Microsoft Word '95 vs 2007 (the ribbon) is a great example.

Mostly MS's keyboard shortcuts have been consistent (Alt-F4, Ctrl-B, Alt-F-S), but their UI has been inconsistent (making mastery harder).

In any case: "tools for experts may seem initially awkward to non-experts"

...and: "initially non-awkward tools may hamper capabilities as the operator skill increases"

Re: Good Tools Are Invisible

#52

Post by gingerBill »

sph wrote: post #17

I am afraid the author confuses familiarity with proof that his tools are better. The reality is that every tool has a trade off, and if a user prefers tool X compared to tool Y, it’s not because they are dumb, but likely they make better use of the affordances of that tool that only a power user would get. Give a developer 10 years each with vim, emacs and Sublime Text, they wouldn’t be so sure which is better. [1]…

> I am afraid the author confuses familiarity with proof that his tools are better.

Literally NOT what I was implying or even said anywhere. Quote me where I said anything like that.

To quote myself:

> What baffles me is that so many people treat that friction—the effort of working around a tool’s limitations—as the “fun” part, and then advertise it as evidence that the tool is great.

This has nothing to do with why I or another person one tool over another, but rather treating the flaws as if they are things to have a puzzle game to work around.

Re: Good Tools Are Invisible

#53

Post by gingerBill »

bitwizeshift wrote: post #8

Well this is a take. It’s weird how much the author fixates on Vim being “visible” and implies multiple cursors and features in Sublime aren’t. Just because your brain is trained to not think about it anymore doesn’t make it any less visible. Multiple cursors aren’t a native feature in many tools, it is still something to learn how to use, let alone effectively — just as Vim key bindings are. Plus, vim is more than j…

That's not what I was saying. I used vim macros specifically as an example, not Vim as a whole.

> I’ve had people tell me how “fun” it was to build a macro to handle some one-off text-refactoring problem. But when I looked at what they were doing and how long it took, my honest reaction was: I could have done that in Sublime in a minute with multiple cursors, or just written a quick script.

and

> What baffles me is that so many people treat that friction—the effort of working around a tool’s limitations—as the “fun” part, and then advertise it as evidence that the tool is great.

If you can affectively use vim macros, then GREAT! But if you cannot, even with using vim for decades, then please don't advertise them as the "fun" part.

Re: Good Tools Are Invisible

#54

Post by thunderbong »

Great article.

Every time there's a post here on git and I read the comments, I keep thinking of all the years I've used fossil and how it's been completely invisible, in the background, letting me get ahead with my work.

Re: Good Tools Are Invisible

#55

Post by mawadev »

I was once in a meeting with a guy for a specific purpose and he wasted about 10 minutes lecturing me on why he uses vim, I had no issue with it but honestly that entire world is absurd to me, do what you want as long as it works for you

Re: Good Tools Are Invisible

#56

Post by qsera »

miyoji wrote: post #50
hrombach wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think if you need to measure this kind of thing, you're missing the point in the first place. I don't want to be chasing some absolute productivity metric, I want a setup that doesn't break my flow. For many people, reaching for the mouse breaks their flow and feels wrong, which is oftentimes worse than being a second slower, because it takes you out of the mental frame you were in. For me, using my mouse while I'm…

I think this is unhealthy self-handicapping. Your "flow" is just habits, things you've taught yourself to do. You weren't born with the ability to use either a keyboard or a mouse, there is no "natural" or "intuitive" way to operate a computer. It's all 100% learned behaviors that can be altered.

>Your "flow" is just habits, things you've taught yourself to do

By this logic a person who were comfortable with mouse should never grow to like VIM.

> there is no "natural" or "intuitive" way to operate a computer.

Fundamentally a computer is something that execute instructions. It is pretty poor interface to pick instructions from 100 options using a mouse as opposed to type it using a keyboard. A mouse hides the power of the computer behind a set of fixed clickable options. That is a pretty poor interface.

Re: Good Tools Are Invisible

#57

Post by skydhash »

skilning wrote: post #34
bluGill wrote: post #15

> usually because they don’t realize how much more productive keyboard navigation is than reaching for the mouse a lot of the time. In a large number of cases people who say they are more productive have never measured it. They have no idea if it is true. There are been many competitions between keyboard and mouse navigation over the years. Depending on the details of how the test is written one will win or the other…

I think that's a pretty reductive stance to take. Keyboard nagivation is more productive _if_ the primary use of the tool is text-based. In a word processor, an IDE, a file manager, or anything else where the primary mode of interaction is reading, typing, and processing the things you've read and typed, keyboard navigation can be demonstrated to be faster and more natural _only if_ the user has taken the time to lea…

Drawing/Painting and Cad modeling is very much like games. One hand on the keyboard and the other on the mouse. This mixture can be also done well in other programs. I only bother learning shortcuts for daily tools, not something I use every blue moon.

What I take issue is with tools that make them hard to use with low contrast between widgets or shortcuts that does not work if a text input is focused. Also tools that forget they have a primary usage and wants me to know everything at once (notifications, big action buttons, guided tours and what not).

Re: Good Tools Are Invisible

#58

Post by [deleted] »

miyoji wrote: post #50
hrombach wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think if you need to measure this kind of thing, you're missing the point in the first place. I don't want to be chasing some absolute productivity metric, I want a setup that doesn't break my flow. For many people, reaching for the mouse breaks their flow and feels wrong, which is oftentimes worse than being a second slower, because it takes you out of the mental frame you were in. For me, using my mouse while I'm…

I think this is unhealthy self-handicapping. Your "flow" is just habits, things you've taught yourself to do. You weren't born with the ability to use either a keyboard or a mouse, there is no "natural" or "intuitive" way to operate a computer. It's all 100% learned behaviors that can be altered.

[deleted]

Re: Good Tools Are Invisible

#59

Post by paytonjjones »

miyoji wrote: post #50
hrombach wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think if you need to measure this kind of thing, you're missing the point in the first place. I don't want to be chasing some absolute productivity metric, I want a setup that doesn't break my flow. For many people, reaching for the mouse breaks their flow and feels wrong, which is oftentimes worse than being a second slower, because it takes you out of the mental frame you were in. For me, using my mouse while I'm…

I think this is unhealthy self-handicapping. Your "flow" is just habits, things you've taught yourself to do. You weren't born with the ability to use either a keyboard or a mouse, there is no "natural" or "intuitive" way to operate a computer. It's all 100% learned behaviors that can be altered.

> there is "natural" or "intuitive"

Your argument is sound but this overstates your case a bit. There's a reason we don't type with our toes.

Re: Good Tools Are Invisible

#60

Post by ablob »

hrombach wrote: post #31
bluGill wrote: post #15

> usually because they don’t realize how much more productive keyboard navigation is than reaching for the mouse a lot of the time. In a large number of cases people who say they are more productive have never measured it. They have no idea if it is true. There are been many competitions between keyboard and mouse navigation over the years. Depending on the details of how the test is written one will win or the other…

I think if you need to measure this kind of thing, you're missing the point in the first place. I don't want to be chasing some absolute productivity metric, I want a setup that doesn't break my flow. For many people, reaching for the mouse breaks their flow and feels wrong, which is oftentimes worse than being a second slower, because it takes you out of the mental frame you were in. For me, using my mouse while I'm…

Most knowledge about human computer interfaces was obtained through metrics. Groupings, menu bars, corner buttons, context menu orderings, and other things didn't just spawn into existence. There was a time where human pattern recognition and physiology was an active consideration for user interfaces. One of the reasons mouse input became popular is precisely because interfaces were created to be easy to use with it.

All of this brings me to my questions: Why do you reject measuring how good an interface is? Or given your dismay over keyboard based workflows, why do you think they would win most of the time?

I'd wager that if actually tested, in only a few scenarios the keyboard would win, while hybrids (with both mouse and keyboard input) perform best for most people.

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