Live data from Hacker News

Why American ambulance rides are so expensive

davidoks.blog

111–120 of 536 posts

Re: Why American ambulance rides are so expensive

#111
post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The average ambulance transport costs $2,673 to provide I think this ignores the 400 pound gorilla in the room. Why does an ambulance transport cost thousands for the operator? This is a short trip in an automobile, essentially a fancy uber ride. At first one might say that's flippant - obviously ambulances are specialized vehicles, and you have paramedics, and they need to get to locations quickly, and so forth, b…

There’s the cost of supplies used during transport. Also the cost of maintaining potential supplies like blood even if they go unused. EMTs may make $23 but they are also getting benefits and have other overhead, making their real hourly cost probably closer to $50/hr minimum. There’s insurance, which I bet is out the wazoo expensive for ambulance. Ambulances have to be maintained and I would guess have much more reg…

I don't disagree with what you're saying but I want to point out that it's rather unusual for (American) ambulances to carry blood, and probably more of them should.

https://www.redcross.org/about-us/news-and-events/news/10-wa...

Re: Why American ambulance rides are so expensive

#112

I don't understand why taxes can be used to save property but not a person.

The article explains why; regulators sometimes can't foresee that their decision to consider something fee for service will eventually prevent it from being considered as a communal expense.

Fee-for-service doesn't prevent ambulances from being considered a communal expense, it just makes sticky. There is nothing preventing a government from making ambulances equivalent to fire or police except the will.

From the article: "The most efficient way to fund ambulance services would simply be to pay for the option the way that options are normally paid for: with a premium, collected from everyone the service stands ready to rescue". In other words, taxation just like anything else we expect to be available to anybody.

Re: Why American ambulance rides are so expensive

#113
post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We give our farmers absolutely insane subsidies already. It is not the government’s job to “take care of” anybody. Everything has a cost, staying has a cost, leaving has a cost. The question is how much should the public be taxed to pay for individuals suboptimal decision-making? Or conversely, why am I subsidizing some billionaires remote horse ranch to have daily Postal Service and an ambulance standing by? Can I m…

> It is not the government’s job to “take care of” anybody. That is literally the only job of government. The entire reason we have a government is to serve the citizens in some fashion or another. Even for most libertarians, they'll view the government in having a role resolving disputes. That is "taking care of" citizens by resolving conflicts. Subsidizing farmers so citizens continue to have cheap and consistent a…

I think what I’m saying is being misinterpreted. I should have been more clear. Everybody’s definition of “taken care of” is different.

The government needs to balance the interest of the public with the interest of the individual. It is not intended to “take care of “people regardless of their asks.

Otherwise, what if I am only “taken care of” if I have a beachside penthouse in Malibu and also a pony?

The government is not taking care of people if it allows the average expenditure per person to eclipse the average tax revenue per person. The economics need to be roughly sustainable at the national state and even rural area level.

Re: Why American ambulance rides are so expensive

#114
post #90
post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We give our farmers absolutely insane subsidies already. It is not the government’s job to “take care of” anybody. Everything has a cost, staying has a cost, leaving has a cost. The question is how much should the public be taxed to pay for individuals suboptimal decision-making? Or conversely, why am I subsidizing some billionaires remote horse ranch to have daily Postal Service and an ambulance standing by? Can I m…

W.Australia has a land area three time that of Texas with the bulk of the 2.9 million in population clustered about the capital city Perth. In the rest of the state there are volunteer Ambulance services subsidised by state and federal government and a fleet of Royal Flying Doctor air ambulances. RFD(WA) comes in at ~ $80 million AUD / annum in state support (for better or worse - https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-07-…

Australia is also going bankrupt just slightly faster than the United States. Looks like deficit spending and debt levels are only trending the wrong direction there as well.

I am all for flight for life as we call it here, but that is different than saying we should have a network of ambulances across massive swabs of mostly empty terrain.

I am willing to hazard that the Australian airlift response is slower than your average ambulance response in Sydney.

Re: Why American ambulance rides are so expensive

#115
post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The average ambulance transport costs $2,673 to provide I think this ignores the 400 pound gorilla in the room. Why does an ambulance transport cost thousands for the operator? This is a short trip in an automobile, essentially a fancy uber ride. At first one might say that's flippant - obviously ambulances are specialized vehicles, and you have paramedics, and they need to get to locations quickly, and so forth, b…

There’s the cost of supplies used during transport. Also the cost of maintaining potential supplies like blood even if they go unused. EMTs may make $23 but they are also getting benefits and have other overhead, making their real hourly cost probably closer to $50/hr minimum. There’s insurance, which I bet is out the wazoo expensive for ambulance. Ambulances have to be maintained and I would guess have much more reg…

TIL getting an elevator tech to just come out to look at your building's elevator is about $1600. If it's an easy fix, that's all you need to pay. If it's not, it goes up significantly....

Re: Why American ambulance rides are so expensive

#116
post #102

> There are parts of the U.S. that do this already. Ambulance rides are already subsidized by taxpayers in most places, thanks to public funding for fire departments; and a growing number of places have taken this further. Indeed, in my county that's the case along with a $60/year subscription program to indemnify yourself against further costs: https://www.wake.gov/departments-government/emergency-medica...

Finding out about this program was such a relief. I haven't worried about the prospect of having to call 911 since signing up.

Re: Why American ambulance rides are so expensive

#117
post #83
post #9

As much as I like articles that tries to use economics or finance to explain stuff, the "options" analogy is a bit hamfisted. The article starts off by noting about how ambulance is an "option" for a rescue, but even though the analogy might vaguely work, it's not really needed to answer the question. That can be answered far more simply: "medicare and insurance companies pay them too little, so they have to charge e…

> The average ambulance transport costs $2,673 to provide I think this ignores the 400 pound gorilla in the room. Why does an ambulance transport cost thousands for the operator? This is a short trip in an automobile, essentially a fancy uber ride. At first one might say that's flippant - obviously ambulances are specialized vehicles, and you have paramedics, and they need to get to locations quickly, and so forth, b…

Probably an obvious/dumb thing to say on HN, but I just want every medical service to have this exact type of breakdown. And then we can at least somewhat pierce the veil of health care costs. The thing I can't figure out is why this doesn't already exist, or, if it does, why it's not more widely known amongst laypeople. Everything from ambulance rides to MRI's to surgeries can be baselined and then we can talk about unique situations that can push that baseline price higher, but at least have a baseline. Seems like a good thing for an LLM actually if you could trust it.

As to your specific $200 quote, which others have attempted to refine, it can't be a coincidence that you come up with that number and the Medicare number is $300+, which, if your $200 is even somewhat accurate, seems like a perfectly fair gross margin on what's being delivered. Imagine if the government actually reimburses for cost plus a decent profit margin! Unthinkable the gov could somehow be accurate in their reimbursements.

Edit: spelling

Re: Why American ambulance rides are so expensive

#118
post #83
post #9

As much as I like articles that tries to use economics or finance to explain stuff, the "options" analogy is a bit hamfisted. The article starts off by noting about how ambulance is an "option" for a rescue, but even though the analogy might vaguely work, it's not really needed to answer the question. That can be answered far more simply: "medicare and insurance companies pay them too little, so they have to charge e…

> The average ambulance transport costs $2,673 to provide I think this ignores the 400 pound gorilla in the room. Why does an ambulance transport cost thousands for the operator? This is a short trip in an automobile, essentially a fancy uber ride. At first one might say that's flippant - obviously ambulances are specialized vehicles, and you have paramedics, and they need to get to locations quickly, and so forth, b…

You can get an ambulance for only $150k? A transit van with a few options is already $75k.

Re: Why American ambulance rides are so expensive

#119
post #83
post #9

As much as I like articles that tries to use economics or finance to explain stuff, the "options" analogy is a bit hamfisted. The article starts off by noting about how ambulance is an "option" for a rescue, but even though the analogy might vaguely work, it's not really needed to answer the question. That can be answered far more simply: "medicare and insurance companies pay them too little, so they have to charge e…

> The average ambulance transport costs $2,673 to provide I think this ignores the 400 pound gorilla in the room. Why does an ambulance transport cost thousands for the operator? This is a short trip in an automobile, essentially a fancy uber ride. At first one might say that's flippant - obviously ambulances are specialized vehicles, and you have paramedics, and they need to get to locations quickly, and so forth, b…

> This is a short trip in an automobile, essentially a fancy uber ride.

We need a regulatory body that can fine people for making analogies this bad

Re: Why American ambulance rides are so expensive

#120
post #83
post #9

As much as I like articles that tries to use economics or finance to explain stuff, the "options" analogy is a bit hamfisted. The article starts off by noting about how ambulance is an "option" for a rescue, but even though the analogy might vaguely work, it's not really needed to answer the question. That can be answered far more simply: "medicare and insurance companies pay them too little, so they have to charge e…

> The average ambulance transport costs $2,673 to provide I think this ignores the 400 pound gorilla in the room. Why does an ambulance transport cost thousands for the operator? This is a short trip in an automobile, essentially a fancy uber ride. At first one might say that's flippant - obviously ambulances are specialized vehicles, and you have paramedics, and they need to get to locations quickly, and so forth, b…

> Typically an ems crew will be two paramedics. Average paramedic wage is about $23/hr.

Paramedics and EMTs aren't the same thing. Private ambulance crews running "dual ALS (advanced life support, i.e. paramedics)" are _exceptionally rare_. Normal staffing is Paramedic and EMT, and most often there are crews that are dual EMT.

Average EMT wage is actually about $18/hr (and in much of the south you can be looking at $15-16/hr).

However where wages do go up, but not in a good way, is overtime. The agency I worked would happily schedule you for 36 or 48 hour _shifts_ and had no weekly hour limit beyond "You must take an 8 hour break after 60 hours of shift", I kid you not - and many people will regularly work 72-96 hour weeks.

The big thing is that private EMS writes off a lot of bills and pushes the balance on everyone else. The holy grail for private EMS agencies is "inter facility -out- of a hospital", as oftentimes the hospital pays the ambulance bill and charges the patient.

You also have to be careful looking at FD provided _transport_ as billing for this is often subsidized by property taxes. There are FDs who will charge for treatment and for transport, for transport only (not for treatment), or for neither (my FD did not charge - but there were also differing policies on when we transported, not by default, so you had people literally - and understandably - peeking out their window to see if it was a red FD ambulance/medic unit outside, or a white private ambulance).

Even above and beyond that, there are a LOT of disposable costs you never recoup. Bedding, blankets, gloves, etc.

> This is a short trip in an automobile, essentially a fancy uber ride.

That is a little flippant, as you acknowledge... good way to offend any paramedic or EMT. I've delivered babies en route to a hospital, including breeches. CPR. Emergency airways.

> A new, fully equipped ambulance is about $150k.

Not any more. Thanks, private equity. You can easily be looking at $400K. And they are vehicles that are driven hard, and cold, and maintenance sucks as a result. No warm up times for engines. Private ambulance, it's common to see rigs with 300,000+ miles on them.

> Then you have liability, both for the vehicle and for the medical treatment; that's about $12k per year.

Not for the medical treatment, no. You can get insurance privately as a paramedic but those policies are generally excess/umbrella style or are specifically "occasional only". The last private agency I worked at with a dozen paramedics and 50+ EMTs had at least mid 6 digit insurance bill.

> Throw in money for gas and wear and tear, which should be quite comparable to other automobiles

For a vehicle that can weigh 10,000lb+, that gets started and stopped often 30 times a day, a lot of time driven "foot to the floor" with an attitude of "it's got to get where it needs to go"? No, although one of the first thing any halfway decent sized agency quickly learns to build out is its own full shop and multiple mechanics (my friend is the Head Mechanic at a local county fire agency and oversees 8 FT mechanics and an auto electrician).

This jumped around a lot, I apologize, and I don't mean to shout you down, at all, but, lest you think I'm defending this state of affairs, I am not, in no way, shape or form.

Post reply on HN