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Interview with Mitchell Hashimoto about Ghostty and Zig

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Re: Interview with Mitchell Hashimoto about Ghostty and Zig

#21

Post by tecoholic »

Jtsummers wrote: post #9

> I’ve always believed there should be way more forks, both personal and maintained ones. There aren't more forks because once you fork something you take on the burden of synchronization, or you forfeit the benefit of future upstream work. To focus on Ghostty, Mitchell has taken on the effort of maintaining cross-platform support. If I want one specific feature (or even a bunch of features) and create a custom fork,…

By making “upstreaming” the core of OS contribution, we have also failed to build tooling around downstream synchronisation. There are dedicated browser forks (a very highly complex software) that are maintained by a few volunteers. So maintaining 1 or 2 additional features depending on personal choices (or a specific company’s) shouldn’t be that hard. If we have a world where that’s normal, we will have a bigger talent pool in core tech, cloud vendors would have a hard time selling hosted solutions of open source software..etc., I think we left a good chunk of net positive impact on the table by what Mitchell mentions as the “open source project as a product” approach.

Re: Interview with Mitchell Hashimoto about Ghostty and Zig

#22

Post by skhameneh »

nine_k wrote: post #11
pron wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is just so weird to me, because I would say the same about Zig. Then why is it weird if you're saying the same thing? Different programming languages appeal to programmers with different tastes, and so it makes sense that some programmers would be drawn to language X and dislike language Y, while others would be the opposite.

Maybe it's even the other way around: different cultures and tastes give birth to different languages and community norms around them.

This is a good take. I was interested in accomplishing my goals and had an interest in both Rust and Zig. Going in, Rust was already proven to meet my needs and I was exploring Zig. Everything being centered around anti-Rust and “better than Rust” without meeting my needs made it a non-starter, it got in the way of discussing the languages themselves.

Re: Interview with Mitchell Hashimoto about Ghostty and Zig

#23

Post by rapind »

nine_k wrote: post #11
pron wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is just so weird to me, because I would say the same about Zig. Then why is it weird if you're saying the same thing? Different programming languages appeal to programmers with different tastes, and so it makes sense that some programmers would be drawn to language X and dislike language Y, while others would be the opposite.

Maybe it's even the other way around: different cultures and tastes give birth to different languages and community norms around them.

I have definitely witnessed very specific cultures around languages I really like that I generally just don't vibe with. The author creates something brilliant, but there's a cadre of early adopters that shape a political and somewhat egotistical community that rubs me wrong. Once I spot them, I don't engage with the community. And it's not even that I disagree with the politics they espouse... I'm usually on the same page, but it's just kind of exhausting and a little over the top.

I'm old-ish though and grew up apolitical, so I'm sure it's just a me problem.

Re: Interview with Mitchell Hashimoto about Ghostty and Zig

#24

Post by fukaiall »

skhameneh wrote: post #2

> I don’t like the Rust culture. There’s no better way to put it. This is just so weird to me, because I would say the same about Zig. I tried to get into Zig even chatted with Loris Cro when he was streaming. I was looking to explore what my Rust project could look like in Zig but there were features simply missing that I couldn't do without. The entire interaction was mostly about how bad Rust is and how I could ju…

Well you only talked with one single person and judge that the Zig community culture sucks? I’ve seen so many dogmatic views of those Rust apostles here on HN and Linked who think Rust is the only valuable language and all the others - Python, Go, C++ (of course) - are rubbish. I am so fed up with those snobbish views of a few Rust lovers and as much as I love the language I want to avoid those ignorant fucks.

Re: Interview with Mitchell Hashimoto about Ghostty and Zig

#25

Post by Ygg2 »

skhameneh wrote: post #2

> I don’t like the Rust culture. There’s no better way to put it. This is just so weird to me, because I would say the same about Zig. I tried to get into Zig even chatted with Loris Cro when he was streaming. I was looking to explore what my Rust project could look like in Zig but there were features simply missing that I couldn't do without. The entire interaction was mostly about how bad Rust is and how I could ju…

> I remember watching HN and seeing every time there was something Rust related trending, there was ALWAYS a post made shortly after trying to hype Zig

The Zig Evangelism Task Force has supplanted Rust as the premier hypebeast. And they'll be supplanted by the NEXT BIG THING.

Re: Interview with Mitchell Hashimoto about Ghostty and Zig

#26

Post by khuey »

skhameneh wrote: post #2

> I don’t like the Rust culture. There’s no better way to put it. This is just so weird to me, because I would say the same about Zig. I tried to get into Zig even chatted with Loris Cro when he was streaming. I was looking to explore what my Rust project could look like in Zig but there were features simply missing that I couldn't do without. The entire interaction was mostly about how bad Rust is and how I could ju…

> Back then I found the Rust community had interest and respect for Zig, so the discourse was very much one sided.

In hindsight (and at risk of starting a flame war), it's easier to be magnanimous when you are winning/have won.

Re: Interview with Mitchell Hashimoto about Ghostty and Zig

#27

Post by NetMageSCW »

Jtsummers wrote: post #9

> I’ve always believed there should be way more forks, both personal and maintained ones. There aren't more forks because once you fork something you take on the burden of synchronization, or you forfeit the benefit of future upstream work. To focus on Ghostty, Mitchell has taken on the effort of maintaining cross-platform support. If I want one specific feature (or even a bunch of features) and create a custom fork,…

Perhaps this is one place AI could prove very helpful - automating the synchronization of forks with their parents while keeping the changes that constitute the actual fork. Or perhaps something other than forking is needed that is more diff based so you have a view of the source overlaid with the fork and the parts unchanged flow through. At least until something like Bun’s change from Zig to Rust blows your fork up completely.

Re: Interview with Mitchell Hashimoto about Ghostty and Zig

#28

Post by skydhash »

cogogo wrote: post #8
pron wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is just so weird to me, because I would say the same about Zig. Then why is it weird if you're saying the same thing? Different programming languages appeal to programmers with different tastes, and so it makes sense that some programmers would be drawn to language X and dislike language Y, while others would be the opposite.

The year is 2026 and the only thing about coding that matters anymore is taste. Edit: Thought about scare quoting “taste”

Always have been. When something is your primary tool, you develop strong opinion about it. Code is notation, helping to describe solutions. Not everyone thinks and solve the same way, so strong preferences is not unusual.

Re: Interview with Mitchell Hashimoto about Ghostty and Zig

#29

Post by danudey »

khuey wrote: post #26
skhameneh wrote: post #2

> I don’t like the Rust culture. There’s no better way to put it. This is just so weird to me, because I would say the same about Zig. I tried to get into Zig even chatted with Loris Cro when he was streaming. I was looking to explore what my Rust project could look like in Zig but there were features simply missing that I couldn't do without. The entire interaction was mostly about how bad Rust is and how I could ju…

> Back then I found the Rust community had interest and respect for Zig, so the discourse was very much one sided. In hindsight (and at risk of starting a flame war), it's easier to be magnanimous when you are winning/have won.

Is it a competition? I wonder if the Zig people feel as though it is, because I doubt the Rust people do.

Rust's big tentpole is "no memory management bugs, everything must be provably safe", whereas Zig is very proud of "no memory management, you have full control but you have to exercise it". I don't feel as though these are competing for the same audience or mindshare.

I've used Zig a big (while trying to contribute to ghostty, at least), and it's an interesting language that I like the aesthetics of but I don't want to use. I use Rust for things because it's so specific about what it wants from you and won't let you go off-script, and frankly I find that very beneficial for myself as someone coming from Python, Javascript, PHP, etc. where you just let things fall out of scope and it's not your problem anymore (usually).

Re: Interview with Mitchell Hashimoto about Ghostty and Zig

#30

Post by insanitybit »

skhameneh wrote: post #2

> I don’t like the Rust culture. There’s no better way to put it. This is just so weird to me, because I would say the same about Zig. I tried to get into Zig even chatted with Loris Cro when he was streaming. I was looking to explore what my Rust project could look like in Zig but there were features simply missing that I couldn't do without. The entire interaction was mostly about how bad Rust is and how I could ju…

I write rust and barely interact with the community. I used to. I spoke at the first rustconf, even. I don't really care to engage with the rust community anymore (I cut myself off entirely from most online communities tbh).

I might stay away from a particularly toxic community or one with wildly different values, but I don't really get why you wouldn't write Rust just because of how some people post about it. Odd tbh. I find the whole thing about "oh the rust zealots" hand wringing stuff so silly, really.

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