381–390 of 757 posts
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Childish or no, anti-AI sentiment is ubiquitous and growing. From a PR perspective there’s a lot to gain in the short term by picking the “anti-AI” lane. And you can always change your mind later.
It's ubiquitous among dinosaurs. Don't worry. They will be left behind.
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I understand your anger too. AI did steal open source knowledge, and I agree with that part. But separately from that, I think it's a bit unfair to talk about the people associated with it in such a dismissive way. In reality, humans aren't purely rational beings, and I can understand why the Zig philosophy and the Bun manager who joined the AI side might not have looked good from that perspective. But I think that's…
> AI did steal open source knowledge It's really sad to see my fellow FOSS enthusiasts adopt this very strange vocabulary from the anti-pirate people. No, no one has stolen anything, the knowledge is still out there. No, you cannot even "shameless copy" from something that is asking the world to copy from it. Literally the point for me and others is that what we put out can be used by anyone for anything, that's why…
yes you can if you do not honor the license that the original was released under.
that's why we use FOSS licenses in the first place
some FOSS licenses are intended to insure that the code remains open even after modification. that's used by anyone for anything under the same license.
This is unprofessional and embarrassing for Zig. I know very little about Jared but his article yesterday, which I read, seemed appreciative of Zig. I now learn he's donated significant chunks of money to them. This entire article is publicly and personally attacking him for choosing a different product. It's insane to me that Andrew thinks this post will somehow exonerate Zig when it really just makes them look chil…
> Or maybe he doesn't care, and just wants to attack Jarred? I've worked with ark enough that I think I've started to learn his default style, or at the very least to know that from him; this isn't an attack. If that was your read, I think you're taking more from sources that aren't this post. I wonder if you're confusing statements of fact, for attacks? They're distinct, and the context for the post. I'm sure he's b…
Hearsay and gossip from the "juicy grape vine" along with implying Jarred is too stupid to critically think about his own path in life because he didn't go to university are not exactly statements of fact. They're elitist and vindictive, but those are not synonymous with honest.
> If that was your read, I think you're taking more from sources that aren't this post.
I'd encourage you to reread the post and try to catch how weirdly spiteful and inconsistent it sounds in places:
> But having graduated from the Thiel Fellowship school of thought rather than university...
> Jarred was a stinky manager. Poor communication, unrealistic expectations, low empathy, no experience. Just a total shit show, from an employment perspective.
> Jarred was already writing slop well before he had access to LLMs.
> Now, it's not our business to police what our users do... We made futile attempts to guide them towards better programming practices.
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Fine, they're leeches. My problem is that if everyone behaved as selfishly as they do, there would be no more nice things for anyone.
> Fine, they're leeches. But of the points is that no-one owes anyone anything, if you use my code I don't owe you support or anything else and by you using it, you owe me nothing either, no money, effort or anything else. Sure, if the maintainer want, it's nice when people fix the issues for the maintainer, as long as they want it, or that people and companies donate when maintainer set that up, but in no way should…
> He gets to live out his productivity fantasy fever dream, he's probably already super wealthy. He has minor tech celebrity status.
Looks like a backhanded personal comment? This didn't need to be in the article.
> It's almost like the marketing department of a trillion dollar company has a lot of money riding on this article.
> The post claims they were fuzzing their Zig code, while during our calls the whole Bun team told us that they were not fuzzing anything. This appears to be an outright fabrication.
Smells like a lot of bias coming in. The fuzzing part was not a fabrication.
> sufficient to catch bugs in 1 million lines of unreviewed slop?
I don't understand how even today software engineers are calling LLM written code slop? It's objectively much better than what most of the engineers write, and it's not stopping to get better. If you still believe this, try out any frontier model on any work that you are currently doing, that should change your mind. There still are like 1% of cases where LLMs are not that good, but even there almost all of the time the issue is in the engineer's steering, not the LLM.
> There's a dichotomy being presented here where you have to either choose a "style guide" or a programming language feature in order to avoid bugs.
He says this, but doesn't give the steps to solve this?
> we all felt at ZSF that Bun was a net liability. > "It Tastes Like It's Not My Problem Anymore" > influx of tasteless AI enthusists into Zig communities
This may be the stance that encouraged Bun to leave.
I have learned so much reading Andrew’s code and as I said in the original post: Bun would never have happened without Zig. > The post claims they were fuzzing their Zig code, while during our calls the whole Bun team told us that they were not fuzzing anything. This appears to be an outright fabrication. Fuzzilli integration: https://github.com/oven-sh/bun/pull/24826 Merged PRs fixing issues Fuzzilli found in Bun’s…
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Isn't it Andrew's obligation to show that he was worth that much kindness to begin with?
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I'm quite confused by this. Is calling someone a "stinky manager" a personal attack? It's funny that we can't differentiate the person from his "job". I work with some shitty managers, but I don't hold it against them on a personal level...
Are you serious? If I told you to your face "you are shitty at your job" you don't see that as a personal attack?
Andrew and Jarred and I are all peers in this situation. You get reviews from your peers.
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It's kind of strange to not engage with any of the points made in the article. Unlike you, I don't think the post makes them look childish at all. I think it raises a lot of valid points and makes me want to use Zig more.
Do you have bias? I'm not saying I don't have some hidden bias but I have no skin in the game. I don't use Bun or Zig or plan to. My reflection comes after reading Jarred's post yesterday, which I found interesting, and then Andrew's today. I just pasted this article into an LLM to understand the tone and the summary is: > The overall tone is deeply personal, cathartic, biting, and polemical, with flashes of humor an…
It's not a happy breakup, but not a super sad one either.
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He's not operating personally as the leader of a major project.
> He's not operating personally as the leader of a major project. What? So let me get this straight--if my open source project which I have given away for free becomes "major" (for some definition) then all of a sudden I have to filter my writing through some kind of average acceptableness test? Come on. [edit] It would be one thing if this was published on Zig letterhead, but it was the guy's personal blog...
For example, you don’t want the director of a science outreach organization to privately uptake all manner of pseudoscience, because they cannot be trusted to carry out the organization’s ostensible mission. When these sentiments come to light, said directory is morally obliged to step down.
A personal blog is definitionally public, ergo by extension reflects upon whatever organizations that person is a member of.
I say all this as someone that does not even feel the posted article is particularly incendiary.
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You want to see him address being "a stinky manager", having "beginner energy", choosing to take VC as opposed to "a solid living via crowdfunding", or "already writing slop well before he had access to LLMs"? Those are all opinions where arguing about them isn't going to be productive. Countering the accusation of "an outright fabrication" on the other hand is worthwhile because it's a claim that can be countered. I…
Hmm, fuzzing integration was merged 8 months ago. First found bug mentioned 3 months ago. Bun is 4 years old. I think both arguments can be true at the same time based on this evidence. It is entirely possible that for more than 3 years team has said that no fuzzing was done, and the first fuzzing was done just 3 months ago, and this information did not travel.