Why skilled workers come to Germany and then leave again • Hacker News Board

Re: Why skilled workers come to Germany and then leave again

#861

Post by drw85 » Thu, Jul 09, 2026, 9:30 AM UTC

alchemism wrote: post #502

djaro wrote: post #462

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would disagree about it not being "easy". Learning a language certainly takes time and effort, but the fact that even the dumbest people in society can speak fluently, that literal toddlers learn languages, shows that it's far from difficult. It just requires turning your rational mind off, immersing yourself in the language and trusting things will work out, something which more rational/analytic people tend to st…

…young children have immense neural plasticity while adults, especially 40+, have little.

I think the biggest difference is that children don't have mental barriers about those things. They just explore and learn, without any thoughts wasted about the usefulness, pressure or excuses not to learn.

Re: Why skilled workers come to Germany and then leave again

#862

Post by aleph_minus_one » Thu, Jul 09, 2026, 11:43 AM UTC

carlosjobim wrote: post #844

aleph_minus_one wrote: post #843

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> or move to other ventures where your skills have better use. Switching the job too often is a red flag for many companies in Germany. The system in Germany is based on the idea that it should both not be so easy to quit your position at the company and for the company to fire you (cancellation periods hold for both sides ).

Then it's no wonder if skilled workers want to leave.

> Then it's no wonder if skilled workers want to leave.

I am not so sure whether it's about "skilled":

If you want a fast career, Germany is likely not for you. On the other hand, if you simply want to apply your great skills in a job, I wouldn't say that Germany is a bad place: I would even claim because the skills are much more appreciated by companies in Germany, the system is rather centered around that you tend to stay in a position where your skills are of a lot of use.

So, I am certain that it is not about "skilled", but about "having the expectation to rise up in some arbitrarily set up career ladder". This is something very different from being skilled!

Re: Why skilled workers come to Germany and then leave again

#863

Post by realityking » Thu, Jul 09, 2026, 12:30 PM UTC

SepiaSapient wrote: post #399

froh wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

errr, no? when you work here for long enough you accrue pension benefits which are paid out wherever you live. if you retire abroad you spend the pension abroad. that's a net loss for the nation.

Wouldn't the lack of medical expenditure win out against the loss of consumption from a pension?

Depending on how long you worked in Germany and where you retire, you might still be eligible for German public health insurance.

Re: Why skilled workers come to Germany and then leave again

#864

Post by carlosjobim » Thu, Jul 09, 2026, 12:47 PM UTC

jmyeet wrote: post #247

parheric wrote: post #20

I've been here for a decade, and sadly I feel the issue is upward mobility for skilled workers. Unless you're working for an intl company, with ex-pats in positions of leadership, your chances of "getting ahead" are going to be limited, especially when you're competing against natives. The reason is sadly, the culture is very reserved and cautious, so as an "outsider" it's going to take A LONG time before you can be…

One thought I hate reading this is: do you need upward mobility? It's a serious question because in an ideal (IMHO) society, people can have full and satisfying lives with security and family without becoming a CEO. In the US, for example, there's an obsession with "getting ahead" but, by definition, only so many people can get ahead. And why do they want to? Because, at least in part, a basic job in insufficient to…

> by definition, only so many people can get ahead

That's the core of the great lie which so massively limits people.

Everybody can get ahead. It's not about comparing yourself with others - and has never been about that. That's school boy logic, to think in limited terms like that.

Can all members of an orchestra become better musicians, even though some will still be better than others? Can all members of a football team become better players?

You can always become better at what you do, no matter what other people are doing. You are almost guaranteed to become better at what you do, if you're doing it everyday. The purpose of a business is to deliver productivity to the purchaser. The purpose of employing workers is for them to do work. As they become better at their work, they will produce more and should be paid more and given more responsibilities. Internal company hierarchy has little to do with it. It's not about getting in front of the other guy.

Re: Why skilled workers come to Germany and then leave again

#865

Post by carlosjobim » Thu, Jul 09, 2026, 1:18 PM UTC

aleph_minus_one wrote: post #862

carlosjobim wrote: post #844

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then it's no wonder if skilled workers want to leave.

> Then it's no wonder if skilled workers want to leave. I am not so sure whether it's about "skilled": If you want a fast career, Germany is likely not for you. On the other hand, if you simply want to apply your great skills in a job, I wouldn't say that Germany is a bad place: I would even claim because the skills are much more appreciated by companies in Germany, the system is rather centered around that you tend…

But nothing is arbitrary about people becoming better at what they do, and thus deserving at least better compensation. Of course companies appreciate an employee who just becomes better at her job every day while remaining on the same pay. Who wouldn't like to benefit from such an idiot? "A lot of use" - cool - but that should translate into a lot of compensation.

If you ask people, the majority would probably be happy staying at the same job, but getting better paid as they become better at the job. You can do that without having to set up some career ladder, and a lot of smart companies do.

Re: Why skilled workers come to Germany and then leave again

#866

Post by delis-thumbs-7e » Thu, Jul 09, 2026, 1:32 PM UTC

imtringued wrote: post #787

delis-thumbs-7e wrote: post #413

Earlier quoted context omitted.

None of this people opining “just learn the language” have learned a second language while working as adults, let alone learned German. You can get to A2 level pretty easy (in most indoeuropean languages at least), but jumping to B1 can seriously be a year or more of studying. You have to be able to handle basic daily situations in the given language and understand what is said in a TV or Radio show. With practice yo…

Why does that matter? It's honestly absurd to make the case that you don't have time to learn the language of a country you're spending 100% of your day in. What are you doing all day? The people who are struggling to learn a language tend to be the people who have zero pressure to learn a language. The most time consuming part of language learning is immersion, meaning that you just listen to or speak the language,…

How many languages have ypu learned with your immersion technique? Maybe you should search a bit of research on how successfull your immersion is for adults learning a new langauge. Perhaps then take a look what research says people who actually learn new languages (not youtube polyglots, people who have to do it for work etc.) do.

Re: Why skilled workers come to Germany and then leave again

#867

Post by shmeeed » Thu, Jul 09, 2026, 2:05 PM UTC

fallingbananna wrote: post #631

rjh29 wrote: post #447

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not easy. I learned Japanese at 28 and am now proficient. But I didn't want to spend my whole life asking other people to translate things for me, being permanently ostracised from conversations, or causing problems for others by forcing them to speak English. It's basic decency imo.

It's less of a basic decency if you're in a country where almost everyone is fluent in English, you get by your life just fine in English, speaking the local language doesn't open new doors, as you're not going to be "native level" speaker no matter how much you study (and many would prefer to speak English with you if you have less than native level of German), learning the local language would take many years of co…

I think it's a mistake to assume that speaking the local language wouldn't be a good investment of time. It absolutely does change the way people see and treat you, even if you're not aware.

If natives choose to converse with you mostly in English, it's because it's (in many situations) obviously less friction for both - but to be recognised as having put in some effort changes your status (caveats notwithstanding).

Have you ever been on vacation where you could speak the native language (assuming you do speak any second language besides English)? It's a night and day difference, my friend.

If you restrict yourself to those areas of life where this effect isn't noticeable (e.g. an english speaking workplace and communities), that's okay, but you are effectively limiting your participation in the host society in a broader sense. I understand that can be a reasonable decision for any individual, but one should be under no illusions.

Re: Why skilled workers come to Germany and then leave again

#868

Post by FabCH » Thu, Jul 09, 2026, 2:22 PM UTC

freehorse wrote: post #857

FabCH wrote: post #715

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First of all, _basic_ rights should be afforded to _all_ humans. That's not what the discussion here is. The discussion here are non-basic rights, like the right to enter a geographic area without restriction or the right to state welfare. You saying "job/role" is where the argument falls apart, because job and role are not the same. Yes, I absolutely agree that people who fulfill roles in society should be afforded…

> the right to enter a geographic area without restriction No, the discussion was about the conditions of staying, not entering. > the right to state welfare If one pays the same taxes for several years why shouldn't they have access to the same state welfare? > Refusing to fill those roles Even assuming it is meaningful to set rules about stuff like that that are basic life stuff and most people do to some degree, h…

1) Because taxes and money are not everything. You do not buy welfare, it’s not an insurance. It’s a social safety net provided by the society irrespective of how much money you contributed to it. So the criteria for getting welfare must be something else, for example are you a permanent member of the society in question.

2) The actual non-exhaustive list of ways to prove you are integrated in Switzerland, Kt. ZH is: do your children go to the public school? Are you a member of a local sports, arts or similar club? Do you have regular social contact with Swiss citizens? Can you speak the local language? Do you volunteer in the local fire department? Did you volunteer for the Civil Defense Service?

To be fair, for permanent residence the bar on any of these questions is quite low. But that is how you sensibly check that.

3) The GP thinks their 200k salary is relevant.

Re: Why skilled workers come to Germany and then leave again

#869

Post by freehorse » Thu, Jul 09, 2026, 5:23 PM UTC

FabCH wrote: post #868

freehorse wrote: post #857

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the right to enter a geographic area without restriction No, the discussion was about the conditions of staying, not entering. > the right to state welfare If one pays the same taxes for several years why shouldn't they have access to the same state welfare? > Refusing to fill those roles Even assuming it is meaningful to set rules about stuff like that that are basic life stuff and most people do to some degree, h…

1) Because taxes and money are not everything. You do not buy welfare, it’s not an insurance. It’s a social safety net provided by the society irrespective of how much money you contributed to it. So the criteria for getting welfare must be something else, for example are you a permanent member of the society in question. 2) The actual non-exhaustive list of ways to prove you are integrated in Switzerland, Kt. ZH is:…

1a)

> criteria for getting welfare must be something else, for example are you a permanent member of the society in question

But the discussion is about exactly who should be legally recognised as "permanent member of the society". I am saying that a long term resident in a country, who participates in the economic and social life should have the same access to welfare. A person who lives somewhere long term (several years, whatever threshold we want to set there) is de facto "a permanent member of the society". The discussion is about when one can be considered such a "permanent member of the society" so that they can be included to the welfare etc intended for "permanent members of the society".

And in any case, nothing is really really permanent, and native-born people may leave a country to live abroad any time (eg many central and north europeans move to the south when they retire), upon which, typically, they lose access to the aspects of the welfare system in their native country as they stop being residents there.

1b)

> You do not buy welfare, it’s not an insurance

It is still an exchange/contract, though indeed more like a social contract than a "business relationship" as others here state. In most places I know some form of economic sustainance/stability (as like working full time for a certain period of time) is the primary requirement for permanent residence. I do not think the value of a human should depend on job and money either, as there are many ways to contribute to a society, and some are def more meaningful than certain jobs, but working and paying taxes is in general part of that social contract.

2) I do not see anything wrong with that list, my problem is when one is expected to work continuously full time, have kids, study the language at a high level and volunteer around in order to get permanent residence, all at the same time, which is not very easy esp for people who work relatively demanding jobs.

3) I am not sure why they mention it, they apologise for mentioning it but do not seem to explain where it is relevant. However I do not think that their (or any such) argument actually needs a high salary to stand.

Re: Why skilled workers come to Germany and then leave again

#870

Post by mft_ » Thu, Jul 09, 2026, 6:02 PM UTC

customguy wrote: post #837

mft_ wrote: post #820

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you want to make me responsible for the fate of Germany, make me chancellor, or get off my back. Suggesting that you’re not responsible for your opinions because you don’t have the ultimate power to change the country? Don’t be childish. Maybe if you can’t cope with being disagreed with, stop posting opinions on internet forums? > What more should I do? Berate other Germans to be "less racist" or "more accepting…

> Well, you could be the change you want to see? Did you just cut off part of that quote just so you can continue to use me as a stand-in for the stereotypical German? I'm warmer and more welcoming to immigrants than they are to me generally. If you don't take my word for that, I sure as fuck won't bother to take your word about what my life is like instead because it's something you can imagine. All of that is a was…

Let me have one more go. I'm 100% not trying to trigger or upset you. This is the chain of logic I'm trying to argue for, in very clear blunt terms.

1. Germany's economy and future is threatened by its demographics, and uniquely so due to the nature of its industry, and the need for skilled workers to maintain its economy.

2. Germany will therefore need to compete to attract these skilled workers against other countries.

3. Germany has strengths but also several weaknesses relative to other countries (tax burden, bureaucracy, public infrastructure, relative cost of living (vs. some not all competitors, note), language barrier and culture around language, etc.) in attracting such skilled workers.

4. To succeed at attracting the very best of the skilled workers it needs, it could/should therefore embark on a bold plan to address all of its weaknesses and make itself the most attractive country for skilled immigrants in the world.

5. Unfortunately for Germany, the standard language of business around the world is English. (If e.g. Chinese people want to learn or work internationally, they speak English professionally, etc.). If an English-speaker has a choice of two countries, one English-speaking and one German-speaking, then if all else is equal, they'll mostly not pick Germany. And some may be put off Germany altogether due to the relative intolerance of non-German speakers.

So, how best to address the language question?

If it was my country at threat, and we needed to attract a large number of a specific type of worker speaking a different language, (amongst other measures) I'd be advocating for removing the language issue as a barrier: for example, starting to teach Mandarin, or Hindi, or whatever language made most sense, in schools. Offering free adult education to learn those languages. Offering direct language support to businesses most needing to attract those skilled foreigners. Etc.

In Germany's case, to address this weakness, I'd advocate adopting English as a co-official language, if not the official language. Pour money and support into language training. Offer tax incentives for individuals and companies who become primarily English-speaking. Offer tax incentives and other support for English-speaking companies to part-relocate. And so on.

(Side note: this isn't a pro-English argument per se. If Germany decides it can more easily recruit the immigrants it needs from China, make Mandarin the co-official language. IDC.)