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Suspecting AI cheating, Ivy League prof ordered in-person final; scores fell 50%

arstechnica.com

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Re: Suspecting AI cheating, Ivy League prof ordered in-person final; scores fell 50%

#81

Post by palmotea »

iepathos wrote: post #45

The article, the teacher, and the general academic community skips the hard question when it comes to AI and that's whether these exams are testing knowledge that is still worth internalizing in the same way? Academia has a long history of lagging behind acceptance of new cognitive tools where they claim to want to defend the students, but instead defend the assignments of the past at the expense of the students. Cal…

> Calculators were treated as threats to learning, even though they ultimately freed students to focus on higher-level math and provably improved their abilities across many different studies.

Oh fuck that bullshit. I was a dumbass to believed shit like that in school, and it didn't fucking free me. What happened was I was always calculator-dependent, which made higher-level math harder, because I was always distracting myself by operating the goddamn thing, and I never developed a very good intuition for arithmetic.

I fucking hate calculators in math classes.

Re: Suspecting AI cheating, Ivy League prof ordered in-person final; scores fell 50%

#82

Post by palmotea »

piloto_ciego wrote: post #80
palmotea wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Honestly, and this is my "hot take of the decade" but I think we're going to get some sort of AI modulated/managed form of capitalism that will approach socialism in some regards but still allow for people to try to "get rich" or whatever. That's optimistic. IMHO, it's more likely the libertarian tech-lords make sure we get some kind of hyper-capitalism, where you're either rich or bone-crushingly poor.

I get that doom sense, but... I can't really see it happening because... well, people that have never truly been hungry are already frantically clacking at their keyboards with the slogan of "eat the rich!" I don't know what we get? But if this is the rhetoric now, how many Luigis would we expect to see as things got really bad, and the vision you paint is really bad.

The thing with AI and AI-enabled automation is that it may lead to a world where the rich don't need anyone else anymore. I could totally imagine things shaking out where the rich and everything important is so-well defended that even an army of Luigis is impotent.

Also, after a couple assassinations of business leaders I think we'll see gun control laws like the US has never seen.

Re: Suspecting AI cheating, Ivy League prof ordered in-person final; scores fell 50%

#83

Post by KetoManx64 »

piloto_ciego wrote: post #37
overgard wrote: post #27

This is already a clusterfuck, but it's going to be so much worse in 10 years. We're going to have an entire generation trapped in the gig economy because their education is going to be considered worthless, and even if it wasn't worthless, there won't be enough entry level jobs for anyone to get into. Senior people will age out and our entire society is just going to be hollowed out. And people wonder why I'm an AI…

The thing you're angry at, the thing that you're upset about? It's capitalism, it's the coupling of education with jobs, it's credentialism being overturned by new technology, etc. I think education is incredibly important, but I understand that I'm going to have to retrain myself a little bit. A college degree can no-longer be assumed to be a proxy for having put in the effort to deeply study something. Now what's t…

Capitalism: > an economic system characterized by private or corporate ownership of capital goods, by investments that are determined by private decision, and by prices, production, and the distribution of goods that are determined mainly by competition in a free market

Any semblance of capitalism we have is a shambling corpse barely getting around. Do you know who pulls on all the strings of our economy, gives out student aid loans to kids who just barely graduates high school? Who controls market interest rates, and gives massive multi billion dollar contracts to Companies like OpenAI, Anthropic, Facebook, Google, Microsoft? Who approved of the printing of the 50% increase in the dollar supply in the last 5 years?

Take a guess. I'll give you a hint, if you don't pay them on a yearly basis 30-50% of your paycheck, you go to prison.

Re: Suspecting AI cheating, Ivy League prof ordered in-person final; scores fell 50%

#84

Post by tmsh »

Disallowing the use of AI is basically the modern equivalent of testing based on memorization. It is a laziness to find something more useful to evaluate on or an inability to distinguish real understanding in a field from first level understanding.

Professors need to step up and teach value beyond what LLMs know (very possible with or without LLMS). Or get out of the way from those building on the field with LLMs.

If you’re teaching students something that LLMs can score 100 on you are not adequately teaching them something useful for them in the future.

Re: Suspecting AI cheating, Ivy League prof ordered in-person final; scores fell 50%

#85

Post by archagon »

piloto_ciego wrote: post #77
archagon wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fascism is the more likely outcome.

Over my (and many other's) dead body. Don't be so cynical. edit to add: I feel like a lot about this negative "ermagerd fascism is imminent" stuff is poisoning the well of discourse. Is it a threat? Yup. Can I envision a scenario where the bad guys win and I get "the wall" after my LLM moderated kangaroo court? Totally. Do I think that's very likely? No. And I think the immediate appeal to "doooooom!" is a thought ki…

Cynical? The press release for the latest Grok version is sitting at the top of the front page. And half the people on this site don't see the problem with that. They'll welcome their roman-saluting overlords with open arms.

Re: Suspecting AI cheating, Ivy League prof ordered in-person final; scores fell 50%

#86

Post by piva00 »

KetoManx64 wrote: post #83
piloto_ciego wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The thing you're angry at, the thing that you're upset about? It's capitalism, it's the coupling of education with jobs, it's credentialism being overturned by new technology, etc. I think education is incredibly important, but I understand that I'm going to have to retrain myself a little bit. A college degree can no-longer be assumed to be a proxy for having put in the effort to deeply study something. Now what's t…

Capitalism: > an economic system characterized by private or corporate ownership of capital goods, by investments that are determined by private decision, and by prices, production, and the distribution of goods that are determined mainly by competition in a free market Any semblance of capitalism we have is a shambling corpse barely getting around. Do you know who pulls on all the strings of our economy, gives out s…

If that's the case, the capitalism you allude to has never existed. Never.

Re: Suspecting AI cheating, Ivy League prof ordered in-person final; scores fell 50%

#87

Post by xboxnolifes »

tmsh wrote: post #84

Disallowing the use of AI is basically the modern equivalent of testing based on memorization. It is a laziness to find something more useful to evaluate on or an inability to distinguish real understanding in a field from first level understanding. Professors need to step up and teach value beyond what LLMs know (very possible with or without LLMS). Or get out of the way from those building on the field with LLMs. I…

If your score falls 50% from not using AI, that's not testing memorization. That's testing learning anything on the topic being tested. The quantity of information on college exams is not that much to memorize. At least, personally, failing to remember something was rarely a reason why I failed to answer a question. Almost always it was because I did not fully understand the topic, so I tried to fall back on remembering if I answered the same question before.

Re: Suspecting AI cheating, Ivy League prof ordered in-person final; scores fell 50%

#88

Post by xboxnolifes »

overgard wrote: post #49
piloto_ciego wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The thing you're angry at, the thing that you're upset about? It's capitalism, it's the coupling of education with jobs, it's credentialism being overturned by new technology, etc. I think education is incredibly important, but I understand that I'm going to have to retrain myself a little bit. A college degree can no-longer be assumed to be a proxy for having put in the effort to deeply study something. Now what's t…

While I think there are a lot of problems created by capitalism right now, I would argue that nothing about the current AI industry is actually capitalist at all. These are companies that are surviving despite absolutely bleeding cash because the ultra-rich have decided that things would be so much more convenient for them if they didn't need to deal with employees anymore. This isn't "well, people are doing this bec…

> I would argue that nothing about the current AI industry is actually capitalist at all.

What? Where do you think all of the capital they are burning to stay afloat comes from? I'll give you a hint, it's from the capitalists.

The ideal of capitalism is that optimizing for profits means growth. But the fundamentals of capitalism means that, since capitalists own the means of productions, they can do whatever they want with it.

Re: Suspecting AI cheating, Ivy League prof ordered in-person final; scores fell 50%

#89

Post by rbanffy »

piloto_ciego wrote: post #76
SturgeonsLaw wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Make education free. I'd love to study something like philosophy or art history but there's just no return on that investment. Unless you're already wealthy, it doesn't make sense to drop five or six figures on a degree unless it's likely to pay for itself. Which is even becoming less likely with STEM, as we hit a confluence of higher education costs, fewer job openings, and AI as a competitor for work.

I totally agree! And I think you're right! Education should be free.

Another thing we can add is sealing grades. If you can’t use your grades as a credential, the incentive to cheat is reduced. This won’t solve the relation between getting a job and living - that’s a job for UBI and a comprehensive social security system.

Re: Suspecting AI cheating, Ivy League prof ordered in-person final; scores fell 50%

#90

Post by rbanffy »

piva00 wrote: post #86
KetoManx64 wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Capitalism: > an economic system characterized by private or corporate ownership of capital goods, by investments that are determined by private decision, and by prices, production, and the distribution of goods that are determined mainly by competition in a free market Any semblance of capitalism we have is a shambling corpse barely getting around. Do you know who pulls on all the strings of our economy, gives out s…

If that's the case, the capitalism you allude to has never existed. Never.

And that’s good, because it’d be the opposite to democracy.
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