Why skilled workers come to Germany and then leave again • Hacker News Board

Re: Why skilled workers come to Germany and then leave again

#831

Post by watwut » Wed, Jul 08, 2026, 6:48 PM UTC

mananaysiempre wrote: post #751

watwut wrote: post #691

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is other way round. If you are unfamiliar with CERF, you assume a lot more skill from the description then is actually required. > B1 is something like five uninterrupted years[1] of consistent lessons. If you go to lessons twice a week and dont do much else, yes. Or, if you go duolingo 15 min a day way. Otherwise no, it does not require 5 years. And what you need the most are not so much lessons (tho you need som…

> If you go to lessons twice a week and dont do much else, yes. Right, this is with a schedule of 2–3 hr/wk of classes (and, as I’ve said, probably 1× to 2× that in homework). Remember this is for someone who likely has to work long hours already; but also, there’s a reason why everything over that is usually described as an intensive course: diminishing returns hit hard at 4–5 hr/wk (in decreasing retention as well…

You dont hit diminishing returns in 4-5 hours a week. That is simply false.

The 2 classes a week course is for causual learners people who dont really care when they get there. That is great, but if you use it as benchmark, you are implying much harder task then it is.

But mostly importantly, the things you add to learn in more reasonable timescale are not as tiring as lesson full of grammar exercises. It is litening to news, podcasts, series (starting with simple ones), reading news etc.

And yes, you can get there with duolingo. It is not as bad as legend has it, it is simply targetted at causual learners. 15 min of it a day is basically an equivalent of that slow 2 classes a week course. I am actually huge fan of causual learning, but I dont think causual learning speed should be general benchmark for how much it takes to a person that cares a bit.

> tail end of B1 is when you can start reading unadapted books etc.

There is nothing wrong with adapted books, but imo, audio resources are waaay better initial choice. If you postpone this, it will take longer, but you can start much sooner.

People do simple language news, peppa the pig, learner podcasts and simple adult netflix shows sooner then that.

Re: Why skilled workers come to Germany and then leave again

#832

Post by Laurel1234 » Wed, Jul 08, 2026, 6:50 PM UTC

FabCH wrote: post #802

Laurel1234 wrote: post #733

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've opened (and used) a Dukascopy account with neither a Swiss passport nor even setting foot in Switzerland. And I can vouch I had significantly less than 30M haha.

It’s a very expensive bank. Compared to a normal Swiss bank: CHF wire transfer and EUR SEPA wire transfers are usually free of charge. Dukascopy charges 2.30 for each CHF or EUR transfer and 19 USD for each USD wire, on top of 0.50% currency conversion. And, their FAQ clearly states they don’t accept US citizens.

Well in my case the government would have converted my USD salary into monopoly money at half of its value (that's before any taxes mind you) and it wouldn't even be legal for me to convert it back, so overall it was pretty cheap haha.

> And, their FAQ clearly states they don’t accept US citizens.

Ah could be, I'm not from the US so I can't speak to that.

Re: Why skilled workers come to Germany and then leave again

#833

Post by blks » Wed, Jul 08, 2026, 7:33 PM UTC

pessimizer wrote: post #477

blks wrote: post #423

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do you want people with foreign backgrounds to “assimilate”? If you were to move to France, are you going to abandon your own language, culture, and play-pretend to be a Frenchman? If you live somewhere long enough, know the country, work and handle daily life without issues, have social connections with other people in this society, understand at least some language - in my opinion you are as integrated in that…

You're making it sound like the desire to be a Frenchman is an unreasonable requirement for becoming a Frenchman. > abandon your own language, culture Thank god nobody is asking this. They're being asked to learn enough French to participate in France. B1 is hard, but it ain't B2, and you'll still barely understand what's going on around you.

Parent comment called for “assimilation”. Assimilation implies replacing your own culture with another, like by Webster definition.

Re: Why skilled workers come to Germany and then leave again

#834

Post by blks » Wed, Jul 08, 2026, 7:37 PM UTC

imtringued wrote: post #795

earthdeity wrote: post #655

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Extraction is a weird way to put it. Usually, immigrants, especially skilled workers, are overwhelmingly net contributors. That's part of why modern economies want them so badly. It's actually the perfect opposite, a skilled worker who plans to leave is a burden on their home country as they presumably will use services there they never paid for. Hopefully, in developed nations this balances out more or less. In unde…

All of the net benefits you're talking about require some form of assimilation and we're in a discussion about rejecting/refusing assimilation. There is plenty of evidence that immigrant enclaves depress wages because these immigrants are trapped in their local community instead of being part of the broader national economy. Everything you're talking about just proves the point of the person you're responding to.

Now you’re being some “immigrant enclaves” into the mix to support your point. I think you show vast arrogance about how modern (high-skilled) immigration looks like and how it integrates into western society.

Re: Why skilled workers come to Germany and then leave again

#835

Post by blks » Wed, Jul 08, 2026, 7:40 PM UTC

suddenlybananas wrote: post #638

blks wrote: post #423

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do you want people with foreign backgrounds to “assimilate”? If you were to move to France, are you going to abandon your own language, culture, and play-pretend to be a Frenchman? If you live somewhere long enough, know the country, work and handle daily life without issues, have social connections with other people in this society, understand at least some language - in my opinion you are as integrated in that…

As someone who is an immigrant to France, I do think you have an obligation to assimilate as much as possible.

So how the “assimilation” looks like to you? If you ever have kids, are you going to be speaking French only with them? Do you try to catch up with vast cultural background that people experience since childhood in France? Do you plan to change your name to sometime more French-sounding?

Re: Why skilled workers come to Germany and then leave again

#836

Post by jitix » Wed, Jul 08, 2026, 7:59 PM UTC

blks wrote: post #423

jitix wrote: post #312

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then why are you complaining about the language requirement for permanent residency? You knew the tradeoffs and chose them willingly, enjoy your income, invest in your home country and move back once you retire. Simply making higher-than-median income should not make you eligible for permanent residency. Cultural immersion and assimilation is important to maintain social stability and language is just the first step.…

Why do you want people with foreign backgrounds to “assimilate”? If you were to move to France, are you going to abandon your own language, culture, and play-pretend to be a Frenchman? If you live somewhere long enough, know the country, work and handle daily life without issues, have social connections with other people in this society, understand at least some language - in my opinion you are as integrated in that…

It depends on your goal. If you want to just work, pay taxes and save money and move back after retirement then maintain your home culture all you want. But don’t complain about PR then. Especially on the basis of how much money you make.

But if you want “permanent” residency then yes you have to be a bit of a “pretend-Frenchman” or however you want to put it. I just pointed out that tradeoff in the GP comment.

The biggest hypocrisy is that you will never be considered a real Chinese/Japanese/Indian/Vietnamese even if you learn their languages and adopt all their cultural traits. Western countries are very generous about this but you do have to meet them half way. B1 level proficiency is not even that high of a bar - compare that to living in China.

Re: Why skilled workers come to Germany and then leave again

#837

Post by customguy » Wed, Jul 08, 2026, 8:51 PM UTC

mft_ wrote: post #820

customguy wrote: post #803

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> you're literally saying you'd rather have your country fail, fall apart, die, than get over your hurt feelings about people not wanting to speak the language fluently. "hurt feelings"? I started out mentioning to someone who I assume gets where I'm coming from, because they are not acting entitled and do not find Germans to be unwelcoming, that I don't respect Germans who don't learn the language of countries they…

> If you want to make me responsible for the fate of Germany, make me chancellor, or get off my back. Suggesting that you’re not responsible for your opinions because you don’t have the ultimate power to change the country? Don’t be childish. Maybe if you can’t cope with being disagreed with, stop posting opinions on internet forums? > What more should I do? Berate other Germans to be "less racist" or "more accepting…

> Well, you could be the change you want to see?

Did you just cut off part of that quote just so you can continue to use me as a stand-in for the stereotypical German? I'm warmer and more welcoming to immigrants than they are to me generally. If you don't take my word for that, I sure as fuck won't bother to take your word about what my life is like instead because it's something you can imagine. All of that is a waste of time.

I simply said that if you move to a country and don't even want to learn the language, you're an asshole in my opinion, not because of your nationality but because of your character, and we won't be friends. Since you don't tackle that directly, at all, I take it you know there is no reasonable argument to make against that, and for the stuff you make up about me you really don't need me.

> If you can’t see well-meaning, informed, constructive criticism being anything other than people “talking shit about Germans and Germany”

Then maybe instead of being patronizing, to the point of just ignoring what I say, assume there is a good reason for that. Let's call it an inside perspective, a lived experience you don't have access to -- and by the way you conduct yourself, don't want to know about, and never will learn about.

Just give me an example of a country treated similarly. I totally assume I'm being biased, but I need an example to work on that, not your armchair analysis of me.

It's a simple ask, too. Where are the people demanding the Japanese are to be more inclusive, or whatever? And where is it almost exclusively a conversation between people who are not in or came to that country, without involving "natives" that are considered so problematic? This schizo twilight zone between people coming here from countries most Germans wouldn't dream of moving to posing to their families at home because they "made it" simply by being here, and then complaining that the German nation isn't to their liking? I'm not talking about a few hundred HN expat guys, you can do whatever. I'm talking about immigrants in Germany, period, and that in addition to xenophobic and cold Germans, there's a plenty of entitlement and dickishness among those immigrating. And we have a long and complicated history, we're not even remotely at ease with ourselves, and we're not your jukebox. Don't like the German "personality", that's great, there's plenty of others.

Re: Why skilled workers come to Germany and then leave again

#838

Post by nunez » Wed, Jul 08, 2026, 9:07 PM UTC

throwaway2037 wrote: post #619

bloppe wrote: post #567

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm constantly amazed at how far I can get in Portugal or Italy speaking only Spanish. They're different languages but you can make it work well enough in pretty much every situation I've been in.

I recall reading an autobiography by US Supreme Court justice Sonia Sotomayor. She used to represent Fendi, the Italian fashion brand, when there were suing for copyright infringement (counterfeit goods). She would speak Spanish and the Fendi senior execs would speak Italian and they understood each other well enough. That was a real a-ha moment for me!

My grandmother had this experience when she was still alive. While waiting for us to shop for stuff at the mall, she struck up a conversation with an older Italian lady. She only knew Italian; my grandmother only knew Spanish. They made it work!

Re: Why skilled workers come to Germany and then leave again

#839

Post by nunez » Wed, Jul 08, 2026, 9:18 PM UTC

sigmoid10 wrote: post #222

kombine wrote: post #192

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My rule is that if you want to settle in the country, you ought to learn the local language and it doesn't really matter how much money you make in my opinion. I got to B2 and passed the test, but ultimately left Germany years ago. I don't intend to go back but I also don't regret learning the language.

I've lived in foreign places for less than 6 months and still bothered to pick up enough language to at least converse on a basic A1 level. Especially in certain regions where people don't speak english well this is almost a requirement for any daily life that is not work related. I can't imagine living somewhere for six whole years without picking up the language at all. Maybe if you actually hate the place and are…

My grandmother survived in the US for almost 40 years without learning English at all. This is very, very common. It's all about where you live.

Re: Why skilled workers come to Germany and then leave again

#840

Post by ralferoo » Wed, Jul 08, 2026, 9:19 PM UTC

graemep wrote: post #719

annzabelle wrote: post #427

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's also supposed to be a distinction about intent to leave in a relatively short predetermined time period. I consider myself an expat in New Zealand, because I'm on a ~2 year visa that cannot be extended, and I have no particular intent to try to transfer to a different visa. If I'd been here the same amount of time, in the same job, but on a straight to residency visa I intended to convert to PR/Citizenship, I…

I think "supposed" is the key word there. Lots of people live somewhere for decades and still call themselves, and are called, expats.

And they are correct according to the meaning of the word. Expats simply means someone who resides outside of their native country.

I guess colloquially it probably implies moving somewhere as an adult, but the word itself doesn't carry that meaning (it's literally ex=outside + patris=homeland). But for instance, my sister has lived permanently in New Zealand for 25 years now (and a few years prior to her permanent move) and has no intention to ever leave, but would still be considered an expat. Her children were born in the UK, but they were 4 and 2 when they moved there, and I don't think they'd ever have considered themselves expats as they've never known anywhere but NZ. In fact the oldest is visiting the UK for a week this year, it'll be the second time he's been in the UK since moving to NZ aged 4.