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Why skilled workers come to Germany and then leave again

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Re: Why skilled workers come to Germany and then leave again

#821
post #130

Here is my anecdote. I was in Germany recently and met with a South American woman. We briefly talked about our immigrant experiences. She is now a German citizen married to a German man. However, she said she can't identify as a German because nobody made her feel like one. By contrast, when I became an American citizen, my American friends (white and hispanic) insisted that they attend the naturalization ceremony.

> she said she can't identify as a German because nobody made her feel like one As a native German, I actually have difficulties with concepts like "identifying as [nationality]", "feeling like [nationality]" or "naturalization". I really would say these are concepts that US-Americans (or people who were "shaped" by US mentality) seem to deeply care about, but Germans very typically don't. So, my opinion/advice is: s…

> since modern Germany is a very synthetic unification of what were historically very different sovereign nations

This is fairly revisionist. Germany is no more synthetic than most other modern European countries in that regard. The lands of modern Germany were more culturally and linguistically unified than say, France or Spain (which had more diverse minority languages that were suppressed, e.g. Catalan, Basque, Occitan, Breton).

Virtually everything that is now Germany (and lots that isn't) was part of the same polity, the Holy Roman Empire, for roughly 1000 years before being dissolved by Napoleon in 1806. Yes, it was highly decentralized even for the time, but the fact that there was a common language in the core lands was not lost on people at the time, and a gradual informal standardization of the written language was already taking place during this time.

So Germany's unification in 1871 was essentially re-unifying lands that had been part of the same state for centuries before, only this time they did it under the justification of the then-fashionable concept of the nation state and with a centralized power in control of the whole thing.

Unfortunately for everyone, that centralized power was Prussia.

Re: Why skilled workers come to Germany and then leave again

#822
Why? Simple: visit a restaurant, especially one by the highway with truckers, in southern Germany, with your girlfriend/wife. But one in a town will do, just speak English, or French. It will be entirely clear after that.

Hell, I doubt you'll make it past the restaurant's door before it becomes clear.

Re: Why skilled workers come to Germany and then leave again

#823

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I appreciate your perspective, but I was curious what B1 proficiency actually entails and this is what I found [1]: - understand the main points of clear standard speech on familiar topics such as work, school, or leisure - manage most situations that occur while traveling in German-speaking areas - produce simple, connected text on familiar subjects - describe experiences, events, dreams, hopes, and ambitions, and b…

B1 is a completely fair minimum standard. It's normal for many countries to expect residents to have basic conversational adequacy. It's also the kind of requirement that's made explicit on government information about residency. So it shouldn't have been a surprise.

It is completely fair to expect at least B1 from potential citizens and permanent residents.

What the article is covering are the skilled workers, and for them B1 isn't nearly enough to function in any profesional capacity. I'd put B2 as a bare minimum for that. So if it's impossible for someone to find employment in the language they already know (for skilled workers it's usually English), they are understandably not eager to stay.

For those who are quick to judge, try mastering a foreign language (and German is noticeably more difficult than English, French or Spanish) in another country where you don't have any support system yet, and with likely some suboptimal job (as you need this foreign language to find a decent one). Getting to B2 takes about 750 class hours (not including homework) for an average English speaker. That's an enormous investment (of both time and money). One will have to sacrifice entertainment, socializing, hobbies, sleep, and work-related educational opportunities for several years in a row, depending on abilities (and the language).

And just a reminder- most people tend to overestimate how well they know a foreign language. Telling you know [insert your flavor of Chinese] and actually passing an exam are two different things.

Again, I am not saying it is unfair for country officials to expect whatever language level they want. It is their country and their rules. As far as I understand nobody's talking about giving away passports.

It's just when it's relatively more difficult for skilled immigrants to find employment and interact with said officials without high level (at least B2) German, some of these immigrants will chose in favor of the countries- with easier/more widely used languages and/or more jobs in English or just lower taxes and higher pay.

If a country's government wants to attract these kinds of immigrants, some of these variables will have to change

Re: Why skilled workers come to Germany and then leave again

#825
post #552

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is some sort of weird phenomenon that I cant quite put to words, but the core is: While there is a big chunk of the native german population speaking great english there is a subset of (often) service workers who... dont. Had multiple furniture movers come through my house the last few weeks, the only way to communicate with them was broken german, since they had no english skills and my (croatian? serbian?) sk…

That's basically why you should learn the language of the country you live in. Blaming people for not speaking English in Germany is pretty weird. How about learning German instead?

I speak german as a mothertongue and fluent english, and I had massive troubles communicating in my own home.

Re: Why skilled workers come to Germany and then leave again

#826
post #802

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s a very expensive bank. Compared to a normal Swiss bank: CHF wire transfer and EUR SEPA wire transfers are usually free of charge. Dukascopy charges 2.30 for each CHF or EUR transfer and 19 USD for each USD wire, on top of 0.50% currency conversion. And, their FAQ clearly states they don’t accept US citizens.

That's not very expensive for a lot of tech workers in the United States. That's why I'm asking so casually. Half a percent for currency conversion is quite cheap.

Y’all need cheaper banks O_o

Re: Why skilled workers come to Germany and then leave again

#827

I am the son of a (Cuban) immigrant and a German woman. Once, the police asked me if I spoke German, probably because my hair is dark and my eyes are brown. Germany has a bias against “southerners”—the darker your skin, the worse it is. If your skin is light and your eyes are light-colored, you won’t even be perceived as an immigrant as long as you keep your mouth shut. But if you look southern or Asian, you’ll alway…

I couldn't help but notice that your post also contains bias against German people.

Of course, being a German is not relevant, nor does it preclude you from displaying anti-german bias.

Re: Why skilled workers come to Germany and then leave again

#828
post #692

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> for most everyday tasks That’s true, if you’re in Paris you can get by with very little French. But don’t be too surprised if Gendarmerie aren’t particularly lenient just because tu ne comprends pas le français.

There is no gendarmerie in Paris.

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:VBRG_in_Paris_Domenj...

Re: Why skilled workers come to Germany and then leave again

#829

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this discussion won't be productive because for them, dismissing race as a concept is a way to combat racism itself and prove higher moral ground.

No, I think racism is mostly one of the ways in which little fish get played off against other little fish, and the best way to combat it is also the best way to combat a lot of other big issues, and that is holding the big fish to account. We're angry fighting over table scraps because consolidated power consolidates further and takes all our oxygen. Like in that meme image with a rich guy and a plate with hundreds…

I mostly agree/sympathize with this. Though I think it's fascinating that "race is real" is a 2+2=5 example for you, but for me, "race is not real" is 2+2=5. Of course what I really think is that both are quippy oversimplifications. Really the fundamentals underlying both "sides" are all reasonable, and it's just a semantic argument poisoned by social politics, which encourages people to sort of implicitly ignore the semantics another person is using, and at the same time to leave things unsaid in their own retorts too, making room for the other person to continue the cycle.

Re: Why skilled workers come to Germany and then leave again

#830
post #818

Earlier quoted context omitted.

CEO of Mercedes was born in Sweden to Swedish parents; has blue eyes. CEO of Adidas has a Norwegian father and grew up in Norway; has pale skin, reddish-blonde hair and blue eyes. CEO of Bayer was born and raised in the US. Last name is "Anderson". Has pale skin and blue eyes. Two of them could pass as German (at least until they started talking): most Norwegians don't really look like Germans and the CEO of Adidas i…

Why does every country in the world have to look like the US?

I wasn't making a value judgement. I was just curious.
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