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"Can We Make the Villain a White Guy?"

hollywoodgadfly.substack.com

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Re: "Can We Make the Villain a White Guy?"

#21

Post by everdrive »

TimorousBestie wrote: post #18
mikgp wrote: post #12

I don’t entirely disagree with this criticism, but it also feels to me like - progressivism is the flavor of modern bad studio films, but not a cause of bad media. Like going back to the early 90’s there was this incredible rash of bad films, especially action movies, and that was just the nature of Hollywood incentives. Because I think the complaint in some sense isn’t the fact that there are progressive movies, it’…

> The lord of the rings on Amazon isn’t otherwise great. That really underscores how bad the author’s “drama requires moral ambiguity” argument is. The Lord of the Rings: The Rings of Power did everything it could to inject moral ambiguity into a very unambiguous text—Galadriel is now an obsessive that disregards the cost of her vengeance, Halbrand presents as a possible Aragorn ancestor, Adar is just trying to redee…

This is one of the most frustrating aspects of modern writing. People think that 'mature' and 'realistic' character is interchangeable with 'a character who is a bit of a piece of trash who is awful for no good reason.' You have ridiculous stances such as 'I had to savage the countryside because people treated me wrong when I was younger.'

It's as childish as the older pure-good vs. pure-evil stories, except that instead of being satisfying in a simple sort of way it's just annoying and bad storytelling.

Re: "Can We Make the Villain a White Guy?"

#22

Post by mcphage »

Most of this article is tilting at windmills. It's notable that they present a number of examples of minority villains pre-woke, and then decry that that can't happen anymore because of woke, but they also stop presenting examples.

Like, they show Giancarlo Esposito from Breaking Bad, saying what a good villain he was. And then they imply it can't happen again. But he was another fantastic villain in The Boys, which just ended its run.

> It means that if a black woman in a wheelchair shows up, you know exactly what role she’ll play; the supportive best friend, but never the lying, betraying femme fatale.

Maybe, but the real source of this is: black women in wheelchairs rarely get any parts at all.

Maybe I don't watch enough movies, but I don't think this page makes a good enough case that it's actually happening. As it is, it reads like something they thought up to get angry about.

Re: "Can We Make the Villain a White Guy?"

#24

Post by everdrive »

enragebait wrote: post #10

I had to stop watching one of the Transformers movies when in the opening conflict they had to go beat up on some Muslims. And those French gangster movies where the Turkish guy is the cool villain eroding lawful civic French values. I find it refreshing when a plot is balanced with a white guy antagonist undermining the lawful order. Whatever you think feel or believe, evil lurks within every kind of person. Our ent…

I was stuck on a plane years ago and it was the only reason I watched a transformers movie. The back half of the movie had the American villain CEO travel to China, where the pure and correct Chinese CEO discovered the evil corruption of the American CEO, and reluctantly saved the American CEO as he immediately switched from "movie villain" to "cowardly child."

I never did look up if I'd watch an international version, and whether the US release was different, but pandering was quite surprising.

Re: "Can We Make the Villain a White Guy?"

#25

Post by ghusto »

enragebait wrote: post #10

I had to stop watching one of the Transformers movies when in the opening conflict they had to go beat up on some Muslims. And those French gangster movies where the Turkish guy is the cool villain eroding lawful civic French values. I find it refreshing when a plot is balanced with a white guy antagonist undermining the lawful order. Whatever you think feel or believe, evil lurks within every kind of person. Our ent…

That's actually the point of the post. It's both boring and a disservice when we pretend otherwise. White guy as the main villain? Sure, let's go! Non-white characters _can not_ be bad under any circumstances? Boring and predictable.

Re: "Can We Make the Villain a White Guy?"

#26

Post by xigoi »

josefritzishere wrote: post #19

I have to disagree. Multiracial casts are a relatively new convention, so I think it's premature to draw conclusions on casing patterns generally. But casting a heterosexual white man is representative of the real world. Who has all the power in the real world? What race is your congress person, your states federal judges, the supreme court... all but one president in American history...

Classical apex fallacy. Just because 0.0001% of white men have a lot of power doesn’t mean there is any benefit for other white men.

Re: "Can We Make the Villain a White Guy?"

#27

Post by ghusto »

josefritzishere wrote: post #19

I have to disagree. Multiracial casts are a relatively new convention, so I think it's premature to draw conclusions on casing patterns generally. But casting a heterosexual white man is representative of the real world. Who has all the power in the real world? What race is your congress person, your states federal judges, the supreme court... all but one president in American history...

> Multiracial casts are a relatively new convention

I'm 47 and no it is not.

Re: "Can We Make the Villain a White Guy?"

#28

Post by xigoi »

mugwumprk wrote: post #9

I really hate it when articles refer to “woke” as if it was a thing. I’ve never heard a consistent definition of that word, to the point it just seems like it means whatever the author doesn’t like

I see it as a generic name for the set of modern ideologies that determine someone’s morality based on how many immutable characteristics they share with people who have historically been oppressed.

Re: "Can We Make the Villain a White Guy?"

#29

Post by kspacewalk2 »

everdrive wrote: post #20

This sort of progressive activism has an incredibly high cost given what is at stake. (ie, bad movies and bad TV shows) It's very over-the-top, and very preachy. Once you notice it, it's impossible to stop noticing. "Did you know that people who look like you are bad, and stupid, and laughable, and that people who look different are good, and also you're bad. Did you know you're bad?" I'm sure people are going to iss…

This does such a profound disservice to non-white actors/actresses, because when the whole "can we make the villain a white guy" mode of thinking takes over, they are essentially typecast for less complex and more predictable roles, and therefore cannot showcase the full range of their talents.

Re: "Can We Make the Villain a White Guy?"

#30

Post by stvltvs »

xigoi wrote: post #26
josefritzishere wrote: post #19

I have to disagree. Multiracial casts are a relatively new convention, so I think it's premature to draw conclusions on casing patterns generally. But casting a heterosexual white man is representative of the real world. Who has all the power in the real world? What race is your congress person, your states federal judges, the supreme court... all but one president in American history...

Classical apex fallacy. Just because 0.0001% of white men have a lot of power doesn’t mean there is any benefit for other white men.

There are degrees of power, of course. All white men aren't at the pinnacle of power, and many are truly disadvantaged, but they collectively share a disproportionate amount of power in the world given how few of them there are.
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