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Why skilled workers come to Germany and then leave again

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Re: Why skilled workers come to Germany and then leave again

#691

Post by watwut »

mananaysiempre wrote: post #505
dgs_sgd wrote: post #226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I appreciate your perspective, but I was curious what B1 proficiency actually entails and this is what I found [1]: - understand the main points of clear standard speech on familiar topics such as work, school, or leisure - manage most situations that occur while traveling in German-speaking areas - produce simple, connected text on familiar subjects - describe experiences, events, dreams, hopes, and ambitions, and b…

It is, in a sense. I maybe feel that, if one is unfamilliar with the CEFR levels, the description you gave might make things sound a bit more basic than they are: survival as a resident is more like A2, not B1. The B1 designation is like reading tabloid headlines and writing essays on middle-school-level subjects. But that’s really a bit nitpicky, and the actual point I wanted to make is as follows: B1 is something l…

It is other way round. If you are unfamiliar with CERF, you assume a lot more skill from the description then is actually required.

> B1 is something like five uninterrupted years[1] of consistent lessons.

If you go to lessons twice a week and dont do much else, yes. Or, if you go duolingo 15 min a day way. Otherwise no, it does not require 5 years. And what you need the most are not so much lessons (tho you need some for grammar) as watching and reading of basic media - and german has tons of those.

Re: Why skilled workers come to Germany and then leave again

#692

Post by Xmd5a »

mr_toad wrote: post #341
michaelt wrote: post #315

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A lot of societies are set up to accommodate that society's dumbest members, and tourists, for most everyday tasks. Outside of the workplace and my hobbies, I can't remember the last time someone asked me to read more than a few words, write anything at all, or do any maths more complicated than "the 12:20 train is 10 minutes late" Personally I would say it's not respectful to a society to move there and not make a d…

> for most everyday tasks That’s true, if you’re in Paris you can get by with very little French. But don’t be too surprised if Gendarmerie aren’t particularly lenient just because tu ne comprends pas le français.

There is no gendarmerie in Paris.

Re: Why skilled workers come to Germany and then leave again

#693

Post by seydor »

Exoristos wrote: post #334
chis wrote: post #221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is an interesting divide. "German" is both an ethnicity and a citizenship, and it's possible to become one but not the other. "American" on the other hand is purely a citizenship, and so it is possible to become an American after immigrating.

> "American" on the other hand is purely a citizenship ... This may be how you perceive or feel about it, and of course you're not alone, but many other Americans feel differently. Those of us with Colonial ancestors maintained much the same culture and mores for generations; it's evident in the manners and the literature; it's something distinct that we certainly feel as close to an ethnicity. Granted, we comprise m…

there were english dutch spanish french colonials. five ethnicities at least

Re: Why skilled workers come to Germany and then leave again

#694

Post by aveao »

14u2c wrote: post #396
dgs_sgd wrote: post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Like, I imagine if I moved to a country and couldn’t do the B1 things in their language, I would have daily obstacles doing basic life things.

Not in most of Western and Central Europe. Everyone speaks great English. It actually can be a problem because most people switch to English as soon as they realize your are not a native speaker, which can make learning harder.

This isn't really true. I've lived in both Munich and Hamburg now, and you 100% need some amount of german to navigate life, many people do not in fact have conversational-level english. I often say that the common paths tend to be easy to navigate in english (e.g. booking a train ticket, getting a phone line), but the adjacent flows (e.g. filing a refund request for your unfulfilled seat reservation, cancelling your phone contract) often require talking to someone in german. A doctor may be marked as speaking english, but that doesn't mean that their reception speaks english.

Berlin may be a different story within Germany, and then there's the entirety of e.g. Netherlands, but I know that the situation in France isn't better than here.

---

That said, B1 is a difficult level within german. Being able to converse fluently enough in not-quite-correct german -which is enough for getting through day to day life- is not necessarily enough to pass the test, and you really need to crunch through memorizing the grammatical gender of thousands of words, alongside getting really good at applying them in various grammatical forms (e.g. declensions vary for the same word based on how it's used).

Re: Why skilled workers come to Germany and then leave again

#695

Post by 0zer0 »

yorwba wrote: post #206
ikut3hva wrote: post #165

Hi everyone I don’t usually comment on topics like this because there are so many biases and different perspectives involved. In the end, I believe only the person who has actually gone through the experience can truly understand it; otherwise, it often becomes just another judgment. We are an ASEAN family earning more than €200k gross annually (sorry for mentioning the TC, but there is a reason for it—please keep re…

FWIW, for Blue Card holders, after 27 months the language requirement drops to A1 and even if you don't have a Blue Card after five years you could also get an EU permanent residence without language requirement: https://www.make-it-in-germany.com/en/visa-residence/living-... Though I would recommend setting yourself a target of some small (≈10) number of new words to learn every day and practice them during your com…

This. With this much income you should qualify for a Blue Card. The 27 months start when you are eligible, not when you are actually holding the Blue Card. A friend of mine (w/ Blue Card) got permanent citizenship in Germany after the 3 years and was not asked/tested for any language skills. As long as you speak a little German to follow the process it is pretty easy.

Re: Why skilled workers come to Germany and then leave again

#696

Post by eunos »

Kurtz79 wrote: post #47
kuerbel wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm from Switzerland and live in Germany and I think it is very relaxed. Too relaxed for my liking to be honest. Sometimes the bins are still out in the evening??? What kind of anarchy is this ;-) Really, it's just what you are accustomed with. Stores closing on Sunday is a good thing I think, it makes it easier for families to have a day together and kind of resets the week. On Saturdays they are also open until 8pm…

https://i.imgur.com/Eheu90I.png

For all of Germany discourse on punctuality they could at least start with DB

Re: Why skilled workers come to Germany and then leave again

#697

Post by red75prime »

aleph_minus_one wrote: post #276
expedition32 wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Germany is a remarkably rural and insular country compared to the Netherlands whose foundational myth comes from bankers and merchants.

> Germany is a remarkably rural and insular country compared to the Netherlands whose foundational myth comes from bankers and merchants. There existed no "Germany" before the second half of the 19th century, only a list of various sovereign states.

What about the German confederation? A list of countries with a governing body is a bit more than a list.

Re: Why skilled workers come to Germany and then leave again

#698

Post by aveao »

testing22321 wrote: post #599
14u2c wrote: post #396

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not in most of Western and Central Europe. Everyone speaks great English. It actually can be a problem because most people switch to English as soon as they realize your are not a native speaker, which can make learning harder.

> Not in most of Western and Central Europe. Everyone speaks great English You are completely forgetting the people trying to move there who don’t speak English OR the native language

For my german work visa in 2022, I had to either give proof of sufficient german knowledge, or a letter from my employer confirming the job would be in english.

"People who don't speak english or native language" does not represent the people moving for work to germany. Most family reunion routes at least require A1 german as well (which is super easy to pass, but is scary enough for some anyways).

Re: Why skilled workers come to Germany and then leave again

#699

Post by sajithdilshan »

This is a very sensitive topic. I think anyone moving to a different country has to learn the native language. That's the biggest barrier for proper integration and to feel fully at home in a new country. Whenever something is broken, needs help or in an emergency one cannot expect to have an English speaking person on the other-side.

That being said, German is not an easy language to learn. In my experience, native German speakers are quite patient and help you with practice compared to let's say French, still it would take ages to be fluent in German unless you're studying the language full time. However, if you're a skilled worker you would be working in an environment where English is used and the amount of time you'd get to learn German would be way less.

In that aspect I think Anglosphere is way more attractive for migrants to settle down and it's natural people would come to Germany, work, save some money, travel around Europe and move on to US, UK, Australia, etc. to settle down.

Re: Why skilled workers come to Germany and then leave again

#700

Post by delis-thumbs-7e »

djaro wrote: post #462
delis-thumbs-7e wrote: post #413

Earlier quoted context omitted.

None of this people opining “just learn the language” have learned a second language while working as adults, let alone learned German. You can get to A2 level pretty easy (in most indoeuropean languages at least), but jumping to B1 can seriously be a year or more of studying. You have to be able to handle basic daily situations in the given language and understand what is said in a TV or Radio show. With practice yo…

I would disagree about it not being "easy". Learning a language certainly takes time and effort, but the fact that even the dumbest people in society can speak fluently, that literal toddlers learn languages, shows that it's far from difficult. It just requires turning your rational mind off, immersing yourself in the language and trusting things will work out, something which more rational/analytic people tend to st…

Why can’t you grow 10cm of height each year? Toddlers do it very easily, and they don’t even go to the gym. Maybe you just don’t work out enough? Average 40 year-old man should be about 4 metres tall, otherwise he just gave up.

It just requires turning your rational mind off, immersing yourself in the play/sport and trusting things will work out, something which more rational/analytic people tend to struggle with.

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