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Why skilled workers come to Germany and then leave again

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Re: Why skilled workers come to Germany and then leave again

#631

Post by fallingbananna »

rjh29 wrote: post #447
delis-thumbs-7e wrote: post #413

Earlier quoted context omitted.

None of this people opining “just learn the language” have learned a second language while working as adults, let alone learned German. You can get to A2 level pretty easy (in most indoeuropean languages at least), but jumping to B1 can seriously be a year or more of studying. You have to be able to handle basic daily situations in the given language and understand what is said in a TV or Radio show. With practice yo…

It's not easy. I learned Japanese at 28 and am now proficient. But I didn't want to spend my whole life asking other people to translate things for me, being permanently ostracised from conversations, or causing problems for others by forcing them to speak English. It's basic decency imo.

It's less of a basic decency if you're in a country where almost everyone is fluent in English, you get by your life just fine in English, speaking the local language doesn't open new doors, as you're not going to be "native level" speaker no matter how much you study (and many would prefer to speak English with you if you have less than native level of German), learning the local language would take many years of continuous time and effort that could be spent elsewhere, and in the end you're not even sure how many more years you want to stay before leaving.

Re: Why skilled workers come to Germany and then leave again

#632

Post by froh »

mmarq wrote: post #281
froh wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

there is no certificate higher than C2, so "minimum" C2 is ridicerlus, ackchyually... I assume.thats your point here, but to bystanders: C2 is nearly native speaker language proficiency, nuanced, precise, eloquent. if language production is the job, or impeccable understanding is a must have, like as a psychotherapist, then C2 is a reasonable requirement. in contrast you can study in german language at a German unive…

C2 is better than the language proficiency of the median native speaker. A C2 speaker is comparable to a highly educated native speaker with a master degree who reads regularly.

indeed

C1 is high school level indeed and C2 is academics. this has been studied on native speakers:

me> I'm looking for studies which examine citizens language proficiency in their native tongue in the European language reference framework i.e. b2 C1 C2

Gemini> https://share.google/aimode/bImgIsAl5VfAcuoFl

has links to studies

also here is the "self assessment" on the CEFR home page:

Self-assessment grid - Table 2 (CEFR 3.3) : Common Reference levels - Common European Framework of Reference for Languages (CEFR) https://share.google/E6POb6UYC53cUkxXg

Re: Why skilled workers come to Germany and then leave again

#633

Post by froh »

djaro wrote: post #472
mmarq wrote: post #281

Earlier quoted context omitted.

C2 is better than the language proficiency of the median native speaker. A C2 speaker is comparable to a highly educated native speaker with a master degree who reads regularly.

If a native speaker didn't pass a C2 exam, it's not because they don't understand the language well enough, it's because they are bad at reading/writing as a skill and might make e.g. spelling mistakes. Any native speaker will still be far beyond C2 when it comes to intuitively understanding a language and using it. No native speaker will ever fail the oral part of a C2 exam, unless they have to talk about a topic th…

nope.

C1 is high school

C2 is academics.

see sibling comment for links: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48828753

Re: Why skilled workers come to Germany and then leave again

#634

Post by account42 »

itake wrote: post #605
dgs_sgd wrote: post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Like, I imagine if I moved to a country and couldn’t do the B1 things in their language, I would have daily obstacles doing basic life things.

The US has a huge population of Spanish only speakers and they find success. I live in Vietnam for over three years, and while I continue to practice the language, I literally cannot pronounce the tones for about a third of the letters, but I still have a very happy and comfortable life here

They find success by forming their own enclaves instead of integrating. Great for them perhaps but not something that the host country has to accept.

Re: Why skilled workers come to Germany and then leave again

#635

Post by gib444 »

throw-the-towel wrote: post #522
push0ret wrote: post #365

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course it's people who don't even live in London who paint completely skewed pictures of the city. It's sad to see how much negative propaganda is being spread to induce fear, uncertainty and doubt. Why are you doing this? Yes, almost everything you mentioned happens. You're probably going to come across some of it if you spend a bit more time here, and in some areas more than others. But you are exaggerating it a…

Oh blimey, what a defensive post. Not everyone who dares to criticise your city is a paid outsider shill, chill down.

Not every defensive post is an accusation of shilling. I did no such thing

I got accused of propaganda and FUD. And I got told by a non Brit that I'm not allowed an opinion.

I responded entirely appropriately

Re: Why skilled workers come to Germany and then leave again

#636

Post by suddenlybananas »

itake wrote: post #606
kombine wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My rule is that if you want to settle in the country, you ought to learn the local language and it doesn't really matter how much money you make in my opinion. I got to B2 and passed the test, but ultimately left Germany years ago. I don't intend to go back but I also don't regret learning the language.

What do you say to people that literally can’t? I still can’t pronounce about a third of the Vietnamese sounds. I’ve had three private in person tutors, no luck. Should I just like pack up my bags and leave?

You're not entitled to live in Vietnam. If the Vietnamese people want you to speak Vietnamese and you can't, then yes you should leave.

Re: Why skilled workers come to Germany and then leave again

#637

Post by suddenlybananas »

fallingbananna wrote: post #631
rjh29 wrote: post #447

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not easy. I learned Japanese at 28 and am now proficient. But I didn't want to spend my whole life asking other people to translate things for me, being permanently ostracised from conversations, or causing problems for others by forcing them to speak English. It's basic decency imo.

It's less of a basic decency if you're in a country where almost everyone is fluent in English, you get by your life just fine in English, speaking the local language doesn't open new doors, as you're not going to be "native level" speaker no matter how much you study (and many would prefer to speak English with you if you have less than native level of German), learning the local language would take many years of co…

Then leave.

Re: Why skilled workers come to Germany and then leave again

#638

Post by suddenlybananas »

blks wrote: post #423
jitix wrote: post #312

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then why are you complaining about the language requirement for permanent residency? You knew the tradeoffs and chose them willingly, enjoy your income, invest in your home country and move back once you retire. Simply making higher-than-median income should not make you eligible for permanent residency. Cultural immersion and assimilation is important to maintain social stability and language is just the first step.…

Why do you want people with foreign backgrounds to “assimilate”? If you were to move to France, are you going to abandon your own language, culture, and play-pretend to be a Frenchman? If you live somewhere long enough, know the country, work and handle daily life without issues, have social connections with other people in this society, understand at least some language - in my opinion you are as integrated in that…

As someone who is an immigrant to France, I do think you have an obligation to assimilate as much as possible.

Re: Why skilled workers come to Germany and then leave again

#639

Post by [deleted] »

itake wrote: post #605
dgs_sgd wrote: post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Like, I imagine if I moved to a country and couldn’t do the B1 things in their language, I would have daily obstacles doing basic life things.

The US has a huge population of Spanish only speakers and they find success. I live in Vietnam for over three years, and while I continue to practice the language, I literally cannot pronounce the tones for about a third of the letters, but I still have a very happy and comfortable life here

[deleted]

Re: Why skilled workers come to Germany and then leave again

#640

Post by freehorse »

s1artibartfast wrote: post #618
freehorse wrote: post #509

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> requirement for becoming a Frenchman The discussion is about permanent residence, not citizenship. Permanent residence allows eg an employee be able to continue staying in a country without being dependent on a particular employer and having to reapply everytime they change jobs. It is gives a person who works in a country for a certain amount of time already, paying taxes etc, having the same rights as an employee…

If someone wants to be a permanent resident of a country and build their life there, they should have to plan to eventually become a citizen of that country. To allow otherwise leads to its destruction, just people with no long term skin in the game extracting before moving on. It is a huge conflict of interest among the population. Its like having a corporation where half the owners want a quick return and exist and…

The main difference is citizen rights like voting for government, flexibility over regaining residence when leaving the country for some time, and how potential kids get the citizenship (depends on country). But otherwise I do not see how there is conflict of interest, in most other respects in the places I know permanent residents have the same rights and imposed to the same rules as citizens (social benefits, health, pension etc). In the corporation case, it is like some having shares with voting rights and shares without. In some ways, (permanent) residence and citizenship are orthogonal, because you can have citizenship in a country, but not be a resident there because they live abroad, and then they do not have certain resident rights like public healthcare.

Getting citizenship is a different thing, and in some places much harder, easier to get denied if you have the wrong ethnicity etc. I think that when settling long term in a place, having equality wrt work, health, social rights as native citizens is important, and thus getting permanent residence in a country should not depend on irrelevant factors. The important thing is to not have people who live long term but their residence rights are tied to their current employer. In these situations, the system produces a workforce that is pressured to be much more compliant and accept stuff that citizens and permanent residents typically don't. This is the kind of difference that creates people with different interests within a country. Stuff like cultural assimilation and similar mentioned here in comments should be irrelevant imo for solving issues like this, and frankly, it presupposes already a certain dynamic and as if the local culture is on homogeneous thing, which is often not. A country don't accept economic migrants (at scale) as some kind of philanthropy, but to fulfill needs/jobs within the country. If they need people to work, they should expect those who stay long term to be given rights equivalent to citizens wrt work etc.

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