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Why skilled workers come to Germany and then leave again

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Re: Why skilled workers come to Germany and then leave again

#621

Post by Gareth321 »

bulbar wrote: post #543
wrqvrwvq wrote: post #483

Earlier quoted context omitted.

An insane assumption when there are millions of immigrants in every european country lining up for every type of health care service and not contributing a cent back into it

I think you talking about refugees, not regular migration. People who migrate need to deposit thousands of Euros, at least when they come for training in health care sector (nurse or doctor). You can also come if you have an offer from a German company or a very good outlook to get one. In any case, you are not allowed to stay if you don't work for a longer period of time. I can't believe how many don't know about th…

> I think you talking about refugees, not regular migration.

I'm surprised I need to explain this, but refugees are also migrants. They're using one of many visa pathways.

This conversation highlights the issue with this discussion: many intersecting issues. As you point out: Europe has made it incredibly easy for refugees to immigrate (most of whom, depending on the country of origin, do not ever enter the workforce); and made it incredibly difficult for working immigrants. This is the exact opposite of what we should be doing. Unfortunately negativity towards the high crime and high unemployment immigrant populations gets conflated with working immigrants. Since politicians do not dare touch the sacred ECHR cow, they enact rules to make it harder for law-abiding immigrants.

Re: Why skilled workers come to Germany and then leave again

#622

Post by throwaway2037 »

marcus_holmes wrote: post #574
throwaway2037 wrote: post #514

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did you ask if you can move to a different city and work remotely? Even if only 1-2 years, it might really help to boost your German. Moving to Dresden, Hanover, or Hamburg would help. (German HNers can probably recommend a bunch of small cities 1-2 hours away by train/car from Berlin that will use much more German language!) You could come to the office once a week. Another tip: Always start the conversation in Germ…

That's really good advice, but I found it hard to put into practice because my German was so bad. And German isn't a language you can just hammer out a badly-formed sentence in; word position is less important than conjugation, so if you get the conjugation wrong it makes no sense at all to the listener. I did try this a few times, but everyone lost patience with the painful butchering of their language when they rea…

I like the effort! It is more that half of the battle when learning a new language as an adult. What really helped me: Create your own custom Anki deck. Literally, start from zero. Each time you try-and-fail (or think of something that you don't know how to say), write a note to yourself in English/broken German with the sentence/idea that failed. At home, use a translate tool (LLM/Google/whatever) to build the correct German sentence. Next, add it to your Anki deck. Personally, I only add full sentences, never just vocab, because it adds more natural context. Only add real stuff that you will use. On the first day, you have an Anki deck with one card. If you are really motivated, try to add one card per day, but just 1-2 cards per week will quickly improve the deck. Since the deck is so damn small, you can blow through it in five minutes while riding the S-Bahn/U-Bahn trains. And, every single sentence is useful to you. Bonus: Ask a native German speaker about some of your Anki deck sentences. They will probably love to talk to you about the German language because you will be showing your commitment.

Re: Why skilled workers come to Germany and then leave again

#623

Post by FabCH »

hparadiz wrote: post #377
FabCH wrote: post #372

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you are not a resident, don’t bother trying unless you plan to have 30M or more in the account. If you are a resident, you can easily open a normal account in minutes… unless you are US, Russian or Belarus citizen.

I was more thinking a brokerage account for typical stock / index fund investing.

No chance.

Also, really expensive.

Re: Why skilled workers come to Germany and then leave again

#624

Post by froh »

sinuhe69 wrote: post #558
SepiaSapient wrote: post #399

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wouldn't the lack of medical expenditure win out against the loss of consumption from a pension?

Medical and long-term care expenses outweighs by a large margin the loss of consumption or tax revenue for retirees, especially for a welfare state like Germany. Many studies in Germany have showed exactly this constellation of cost-benefit.

interesting.

I wonder how many move back to Germany when fragile though. requires citizenship though? unless your permanent residency stays valid when you move abroad.

what would I have to use as search terms on Google scholar to find the many studies?

Re: Why skilled workers come to Germany and then leave again

#625

Post by froh »

lifestyleguru wrote: post #162
froh wrote: post #124

guys, join a Verein. some Verein. any Verein. that's where Germans make friends when we're new in town.

They joined verein but didn't notice it's two years contract with auto renewal, cancellation three months in advance by letter. Left the country after receiving Mahnbescheid. Have fun in this asshole-verein.

2y? sounds like some fitness sth scam. not the real thing. no clubs, where people share their hobby.

Re: Why skilled workers come to Germany and then leave again

#626

Post by froh »

torginus wrote: post #445
froh wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

there is no certificate higher than C2, so "minimum" C2 is ridicerlus, ackchyually... I assume.thats your point here, but to bystanders: C2 is nearly native speaker language proficiency, nuanced, precise, eloquent. if language production is the job, or impeccable understanding is a must have, like as a psychotherapist, then C2 is a reasonable requirement. in contrast you can study in german language at a German unive…

Germans just love to exclude others based on their 'master race' sentiment - I have had this happen to others in my vicinity, so that's why I know it's not a personal grievance thing. I had a friend rejected from a job (she was not German but lived in Germany, and spoke the language), as the recruiter told her they are looking only for people from DACH countries becase of some 'data protection laws' that can be enfor…

that relates to the C2/C1/B2 conversation in which way?

Re: Why skilled workers come to Germany and then leave again

#627

Post by throwaway2037 »

keiferski wrote: post #527
throwaway2037 wrote: post #521

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Great point! I would say the same about the "alpha" economic city in any rich country. Think about Paris, Milan, London, Amsterdam, Brussels, Madrid, Lisbon, etc.: The same rule would apply.

Berlin isn’t the alpha economic city in Germany though. There isn’t really one, but it’s more like Frankfurt. Berlin has a lot of English speakers because it’s been a cool place for young people to move to from across Europe for the last few decades.

    > Berlin isn’t the alpha economic city in Germany though. There isn’t really one, but it’s more like Frankfurt.
You are right. I will add one thing: Berlin is the alpha economic city in Germany for the new economy. Frankfurt is for finance, and Munich is for manufacturing, but those are the old economy -- barely changing.

Re: Why skilled workers come to Germany and then leave again

#628

Post by gib444 »

NicuCalcea wrote: post #434
gib444 wrote: post #411

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have experience in what you describe, as I live far from London in a place I'm not from. Yes it can be very insular and can take many years to even begin being treated like a local (it's not until you have a kid, so I'm told). I'm treated with suspicion too. A lot of it is 'not from here [the village/town/county]' (and not sounding like you're from here) rather than 'not white' or 'not from the UK' so I can't hard…

I don't have any identical comparisons of politeness in London and the rest of the UK, but subjectively I do feel people in London are more likely to hold doors, let me skip queues, etc. There's just more of a feeling that we're all trying to navigate life in the city together, rather than gatekeeping each other's presence in it. It's even more noticeable with people who are paid to be polite: bar and waiting staff,…

> It's even more noticeable with people who are paid to be polite: bar and waiting staff, the folks working at Tesco, pub security, the kebab man. I walk into a pub in the middle of nowhere in England, they treat me like I'm intruding or inconveniencing them. I do that in London, they just ask "What are you having love?".

It's funny I find the complete opposite. I've been in London visiting for a week and it's been an absolute chore getting anyone to respond to "good morning" in a cafe or shop. Too many who barely speak English, don't tell me what the total is, do little more than grunt. Every order even for a simple black coffee involves an annoying back and front of "warmorice?" "Sorry?" "warmorice". Oh you mean "is that hot or iced coffee?"

A lot of it is racism and xenophobia (and I do acknowledge you may have been on the receiving end too). Many shops are staffed 100% by Asians now.

Yes HN, racism against white people / xenophobia towards British people exists.

Which part of London do you usually frequent out of interest? North or South West...?

I very much can imagine if you hang around with a lot of foreigners/non Londoners in London there's a shared experience there and a support network. You have a common background and 'struggle' of surviving London. What did you have shared with the man in Bangor or the pub staff elsewhere in England? Do you understand their perspective? Their struggles? Something to ponder perhaps

Re: Why skilled workers come to Germany and then leave again

#629

Post by avemuri »

aleph_minus_one wrote: post #255
parheric wrote: post #20

I've been here for a decade, and sadly I feel the issue is upward mobility for skilled workers. Unless you're working for an intl company, with ex-pats in positions of leadership, your chances of "getting ahead" are going to be limited, especially when you're competing against natives. The reason is sadly, the culture is very reserved and cautious, so as an "outsider" it's going to take A LONG time before you can be…

> hey need to do 10x more than someone who is simply "a native" to the country (or... you'll stay in a position and just rot until you move on). Staying in a position for a long part of one's life is a very common situation for many Germans, too. The whole concept of that you must have a career seems to be deeply ingrained in US mentality. So, I have a strong feeling that a lot of immigrants who feel they hit a glass…

I think this is the type of answer that is frustrating to non-Germans. Hey don't look at that person who got promoted ahead of you despite you being more qualified. Look here instead at all these other people who didn't get promoted.

Re: Why skilled workers come to Germany and then leave again

#630

Post by froh »

mmarq wrote: post #591
djaro wrote: post #472

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If a native speaker didn't pass a C2 exam, it's not because they don't understand the language well enough, it's because they are bad at reading/writing as a skill and might make e.g. spelling mistakes. Any native speaker will still be far beyond C2 when it comes to intuitively understanding a language and using it. No native speaker will ever fail the oral part of a C2 exam, unless they have to talk about a topic th…

> it's because they are bad at reading/writing as a skill and might make e.g. spelling mistakes. Reading and writing are part of language proficiency. If someone struggles to understand complex written texts, then their command of the language isn't as strong as that of a proficient C1/C2 user, even if they are a native speaker. > they have to talk about a topic they don't know. When I took my C1 exam, I had to read…

yes.

indeed.

C1 is high school.

C2 is academics.

see sibling comment for links: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48828753

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