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Why skilled workers come to Germany and then leave again

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Re: Why skilled workers come to Germany and then leave again

#591

Post by mmarq »

djaro wrote: post #472
mmarq wrote: post #281

Earlier quoted context omitted.

C2 is better than the language proficiency of the median native speaker. A C2 speaker is comparable to a highly educated native speaker with a master degree who reads regularly.

If a native speaker didn't pass a C2 exam, it's not because they don't understand the language well enough, it's because they are bad at reading/writing as a skill and might make e.g. spelling mistakes. Any native speaker will still be far beyond C2 when it comes to intuitively understanding a language and using it. No native speaker will ever fail the oral part of a C2 exam, unless they have to talk about a topic th…

> it's because they are bad at reading/writing as a skill and might make e.g. spelling mistakes.

Reading and writing are part of language proficiency. If someone struggles to understand complex written texts, then their command of the language isn't as strong as that of a proficient C1/C2 user, even if they are a native speaker.

> they have to talk about a topic they don't know.

When I took my C1 exam, I had to read and discuss a text about polymers used in aircraft wings. The definition of C1 describes someone who can understand complex texts and use the language in academic and professional contexts. Many native speakers are not even close (eg I know a number of people who were born and raised in Italy who don't understand all the moods and tenses, so I have to simplify my language when speaking with them, as I would with a foreigner).

What you have in mind is “sounding like a local” or “not having a foreign accent” or “knowing most of regional idiomatic expression”.

Re: Why skilled workers come to Germany and then leave again

#592

Post by Ozzie_osman »

Anecdotal and more for unskilled than skilled workers, but having traveled to Germany a bunch, I found that taxi drivers and delivery drivers seem pretty unhappy there. They mention not feeling accepted, feeling constantly looked down upon, etc. There's a bit of that in every country, but generally, the immigrants I've found in Germany seem a lot less happy than the ones I've met in other countries.

Re: Why skilled workers come to Germany and then leave again

#593

Post by musha68k »

mstaoru wrote: post #586
musha68k wrote: post #583

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've been there, same as in Quebec for French but I would see it as a learning opportunity to practice. In Austria I've always made an effort to stay inclusively in English in these settings but it's probably normal to fall back to default language in most countries and cultures especially when the context is not about the work per se.

Isn't it a bit of a chicken and egg problem? You cannot join a fluent conversation without being fluent. You cannot become fluent without practicing.

You need to listen / interject and show that you are making an effort, then people usually will meet you there and you can even fall back to English again if you have to but then steer back towards target language. Learning opportunities.

Re: Why skilled workers come to Germany and then leave again

#594

Post by ShinyLeftPad »

crossroadsguy wrote: post #507
aleph_minus_one wrote: post #451

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think what she meant that even if you live in Germany/work with German colleagues, basically you will enternally made to be felt that you are not one of them by all but the most liberally minded Germans (and even those are rare even in the big international cities). So your friend group (if you decide to have one, rather than concentrate on family), will consist of other expats/immigrants. Thanks for your interes…

Immigrants who go to Germany are not used to US mentality, they don't have a mandatory few years of pitstop in the US to pickup US mentality before they finally land in Germany. You are "certain" (literally) about a lot of things that you are typically missing (or rather ignoring) any points the other commenters are trying bring in. Maybe that's also a point? As for work connections - someone just landed in a foreign…

Are you also German?

Re: Why skilled workers come to Germany and then leave again

#595

Post by bryanrasmussen »

marcus_holmes wrote: post #572
bryanrasmussen wrote: post #544

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>everyone under the age of 50 speaks good English and switched to that as soon as my first badly-conjugated sentence left my mouth. OK maybe things have changed in recent years. I was always annoyed when coming to visit family living in Berlin for a couple days or driving in to a conference, and inevitably there would come a time when I would have to ask someone for help and I would have to ask in English because I d…

Berliners are renowned even in Germany for being blunt to the point of rudeness. What we in the Anglosphere would consider rude, they consider efficient. It can be very off-putting at first, but you do get used to it.

in most other countries renowned for being efficient it would not be considered efficient to answer in a language the questioner evidently does not speak.

Re: Why skilled workers come to Germany and then leave again

#596

Post by modriano »

throwaway2037 wrote: post #521
aleph_minus_one wrote: post #431

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Berlin is a completely different world than the rest of Germany. Never make the mistake of generalizing anything that you observed in Berlin to Germany outside of Berlin.

Great point! I would say the same about the "alpha" economic city in any rich country. Think about Paris, Milan, London, Amsterdam, Brussels, Madrid, Lisbon, etc.: The same rule would apply.

Being bombed to hell and then split in half and starved of resources until 1989 really hindered Berlin's economic development. It's not the powerhouse one might expect given its cultural output and being a nation's Capitol.

Re: Why skilled workers come to Germany and then leave again

#597

Post by nikanj »

malshe wrote: post #130

Here is my anecdote. I was in Germany recently and met with a South American woman. We briefly talked about our immigrant experiences. She is now a German citizen married to a German man. However, she said she can't identify as a German because nobody made her feel like one. By contrast, when I became an American citizen, my American friends (white and hispanic) insisted that they attend the naturalization ceremony.

How is your English compared to her German?

Re: Why skilled workers come to Germany and then leave again

#598

Post by Etheryte »

ikut3hva wrote: post #165

Hi everyone I don’t usually comment on topics like this because there are so many biases and different perspectives involved. In the end, I believe only the person who has actually gone through the experience can truly understand it; otherwise, it often becomes just another judgment. We are an ASEAN family earning more than €200k gross annually (sorry for mentioning the TC, but there is a reason for it—please keep re…

I don't have any skin in the game here for Germany specifically, but I would point out that B1 is an incredibly low bar to clear. With concentrated effort, you can reach that level in under a year, I know because I've done it. Given you have kids and are otherwise preoccupied, maybe a few years. At six years in, it's purely a matter of whether you yourself actually want it or not.

Re: Why skilled workers come to Germany and then leave again

#599

Post by testing22321 »

14u2c wrote: post #396
dgs_sgd wrote: post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Like, I imagine if I moved to a country and couldn’t do the B1 things in their language, I would have daily obstacles doing basic life things.

Not in most of Western and Central Europe. Everyone speaks great English. It actually can be a problem because most people switch to English as soon as they realize your are not a native speaker, which can make learning harder.

> Not in most of Western and Central Europe. Everyone speaks great English

You are completely forgetting the people trying to move there who don’t speak English OR the native language

Re: Why skilled workers come to Germany and then leave again

#600

Post by totetsu »

dgs_sgd wrote: post #226
ikut3hva wrote: post #165

Hi everyone I don’t usually comment on topics like this because there are so many biases and different perspectives involved. In the end, I believe only the person who has actually gone through the experience can truly understand it; otherwise, it often becomes just another judgment. We are an ASEAN family earning more than €200k gross annually (sorry for mentioning the TC, but there is a reason for it—please keep re…

I appreciate your perspective, but I was curious what B1 proficiency actually entails and this is what I found [1]: - understand the main points of clear standard speech on familiar topics such as work, school, or leisure - manage most situations that occur while traveling in German-speaking areas - produce simple, connected text on familiar subjects - describe experiences, events, dreams, hopes, and ambitions, and b…

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