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Why skilled workers come to Germany and then leave again

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Re: Why skilled workers come to Germany and then leave again

#581

Post by marcus_holmes »

throwaway2037 wrote: post #525
marcus_holmes wrote: post #499

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with you, but some don't; I lived in Cambodia for a while, and there were/are "ex-pats" living there with Khmer wives and children, who speak perfect Khmer, work in Cambodian companies, have been there for 20+ years, and still refer to themselves as "ex-pats". But I think this is might be cultural about the host country. Cambodia is blatantly racist, "Cambodia is for the Khmer people" is a thing there. Any no…

> Cambodia is blatantly racist In my experience, there is nothing special about Cambodia in this regard. You could substitute any poorly developed nation, and you would have similar results. If Cambodia had a GDP per capita similar to Japan/Korea/Taiwan, they would "suddenly" become less racist because they would be much more concerned with economics rather than ethnicity/religion.

I had to think about this.

I don't think it's wealth that's the differentiator. I think it's partly colonialism and partly culture.

> If Cambodia had a GDP per capita similar to Japan/Korea/Taiwan, they would "suddenly" become less racist

Japan is also, famously, extremely racist. Probably to the same extent that Cambodia is, but I haven't been there so I can't compare.

Colonialism has a lot to answer for in SE Asia. I suspect a lot of the defensive patriotism there is a product of being so badly treated for so long.

And culturally, there are a lot of differences between SE Asia mentality and Anglosphere/Western mentality. I suspect part of it is this, too.

Re: Why skilled workers come to Germany and then leave again

#582

Post by dmitrig01 »

SoftTalker wrote: post #219
socalgal2 wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know German produce but I'm pretty confident California, where I'm from, doesn't compare to Paris' farmers markets. The variety and quality there were way beyond all the farmers markets and produce stands I've been to over my life in California. That said, I certainly noticed a difference between California and Maryland, at least at the time. But, having experienced better I no longer consider California good…

In the US, a lot of "farmers" markets are just people selling wholesale produce they bought from a warehouse or maybe Costco or similar. There's not really any regulation (though I don't know about California, specifically).

In California, it is regulated: https://california.public.law/codes/food_and_agricultural_co...

Re: Why skilled workers come to Germany and then leave again

#583

Post by musha68k »

mstaoru wrote: post #580

I can add my anecdote to the language barrier points. At work we speak English, everybody speak English all the time, all docs are in English, all meetings are in English. There's an occasional German email every now and then but people will switch. When we go to a "team building" retreat, all the same teammates that happily chatted with us expats in English just switch to German 100%, full stop. You can come and sta…

I've been there, same as in Quebec for French but I would see it as a learning opportunity to practice.

In Austria I've always made an effort to stay inclusively in English in these settings but it's probably normal to fall back to default language in most countries and cultures especially when the context is not about the work per se.

Re: Why skilled workers come to Germany and then leave again

#584

Post by ButlerianJihad »

hunterpayne wrote: post #506
torton wrote: post #364

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's the nice part about having your own country -- no more systemic discrimination or prohibition on owning land, or joining professional guilds, or having some king being upset about his debts and organizing a small confiscation of wealth. The ambition of keeping that country, however, is something that many people would rather deny that specific etnoreligious community.

In this case, the GP is talking about the Huguenots who are/were French Calvinists.

> talking about the Huguenots

Am I really now? That comes as a surprise to this GP!

Re: Why skilled workers come to Germany and then leave again

#585

Post by retired »

dgs_sgd wrote: post #237
TheOtherHobbes wrote: post #231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

B1 is a completely fair minimum standard. It's normal for many countries to expect residents to have basic conversational adequacy. It's also the kind of requirement that's made explicit on government information about residency. So it shouldn't have been a surprise.

Like, I imagine if I moved to a country and couldn’t do the B1 things in their language, I would have daily obstacles doing basic life things.

I have no issues with A1 Spanish in Spain for daily life.

Re: Why skilled workers come to Germany and then leave again

#586

Post by mstaoru »

musha68k wrote: post #583
mstaoru wrote: post #580

I can add my anecdote to the language barrier points. At work we speak English, everybody speak English all the time, all docs are in English, all meetings are in English. There's an occasional German email every now and then but people will switch. When we go to a "team building" retreat, all the same teammates that happily chatted with us expats in English just switch to German 100%, full stop. You can come and sta…

I've been there, same as in Quebec for French but I would see it as a learning opportunity to practice. In Austria I've always made an effort to stay inclusively in English in these settings but it's probably normal to fall back to default language in most countries and cultures especially when the context is not about the work per se.

Isn't it a bit of a chicken and egg problem? You cannot join a fluent conversation without being fluent. You cannot become fluent without practicing.

Re: Why skilled workers come to Germany and then leave again

#587

Post by ideasarecool »

ikut3hva wrote: post #165

Hi everyone I don’t usually comment on topics like this because there are so many biases and different perspectives involved. In the end, I believe only the person who has actually gone through the experience can truly understand it; otherwise, it often becomes just another judgment. We are an ASEAN family earning more than €200k gross annually (sorry for mentioning the TC, but there is a reason for it—please keep re…

B1 in any language is a low standard. It being a major hurdle seems unlikely.

Re: Why skilled workers come to Germany and then leave again

#588

Post by elric »

ogou wrote: post #296

Berlin is one the cheapest capital cities in Europe. As such it attracts a huge amount of immigrants. That low cost is reflected in the pay. An experienced full stack developer would be fortunate to get 90-95k euro annually. That is plenty of money if you intend to stay in Berlin, but is not something you can save up and build a future with or transfer to another country. Also, housing is a huge problem there and it…

90-95k would be impossibly high in Belgium, which is but a stone's throw away from Germany. If that isn't enough money to save, you're doing something very wrong, or your idea of a cheap city might differ from mine.

Re: Why skilled workers come to Germany and then leave again

#589

Post by dizhn »

eldaisfish wrote: post #223
ikut3hva wrote: post #165

Hi everyone I don’t usually comment on topics like this because there are so many biases and different perspectives involved. In the end, I believe only the person who has actually gone through the experience can truly understand it; otherwise, it often becomes just another judgment. We are an ASEAN family earning more than €200k gross annually (sorry for mentioning the TC, but there is a reason for it—please keep re…

There is yet another angle that people don't like to discuss because it is uncomfortable. Every European nation state is built around ethnicity as the bedrock of society. This makes it nigh on impossible to integrate fully in these countries. The way this manifests is different in each country, but the fundamental reason is the same. In the german case, take the words of Messut Ozil, the former footballer - when the…

Mesut Özil was himself very German until he retired and saw the potential in cozying up to Erdoğan. Now he's a nationalist.

Re: Why skilled workers come to Germany and then leave again

#590

Post by throwaway2037 »

throwaway2037 wrote: post #529
mananaysiempre wrote: post #505

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is, in a sense. I maybe feel that, if one is unfamilliar with the CEFR levels, the description you gave might make things sound a bit more basic than they are: survival as a resident is more like A2, not B1. The B1 designation is like reading tabloid headlines and writing essays on middle-school-level subjects. But that’s really a bit nitpicky, and the actual point I wanted to make is as follows: B1 is something l…

I like this hot take. I'm onboard with most of it. It is interesting that you mentioned Israel's special handling of immigrants and their languages. I lived in New York City for a short while, and I was very surprised by the accomodation of foreign languages by civil servants. Almost any city office I went to had a section with a few people that could speak a bunch of languages to support residents. Plus, many writte…

Follow-up reply: I asked ChatGPT about those six languages in Israel.

    > The six primary languages supported by Israel's government for immigrants (Olim) are Hebrew, English, Russian, Spanish, French, and Amharic. The Ministry of Aliyah and Integration uses these languages for government services, informational portals, and the official Olim App to help newcomers manage their entitlements.
Very cool! I felt stupid that I never heard of Amharic as a language, and I needed to look it up on Wiki.
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