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Why skilled workers come to Germany and then leave again

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Re: Why skilled workers come to Germany and then leave again

#551

Post by DStiego »

probably_wrong wrote: post #48

I migrated to Germany 10+ years ago and I'm still here. Based on my limited experience, there are two big issues. First, things are bad : trains are getting worse every year, the highways are in disrepair (ask me about Bonn!), overloaded doctors, impossibly slow bureaucracy, economic crisis, growing inequality, housing crisis, and so on. If you're a fresh immigrant who cannot find a job in an economic crisis (aka "mo…

This is one of the most accurate descriptions I’ve seen here. Germany is a country with immense potential. All one can say is “what a shame”.

Re: Why skilled workers come to Germany and then leave again

#552

Post by bulbar »

stnikolauswagne wrote: post #530
14u2c wrote: post #396

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not in most of Western and Central Europe. Everyone speaks great English. It actually can be a problem because most people switch to English as soon as they realize your are not a native speaker, which can make learning harder.

There is some sort of weird phenomenon that I cant quite put to words, but the core is: While there is a big chunk of the native german population speaking great english there is a subset of (often) service workers who... dont. Had multiple furniture movers come through my house the last few weeks, the only way to communicate with them was broken german, since they had no english skills and my (croatian? serbian?) sk…

That's basically why you should learn the language of the country you live in.

Blaming people for not speaking English in Germany is pretty weird. How about learning German instead?

Re: Why skilled workers come to Germany and then leave again

#553

Post by parheric »

jmyeet wrote: post #247
parheric wrote: post #20

I've been here for a decade, and sadly I feel the issue is upward mobility for skilled workers. Unless you're working for an intl company, with ex-pats in positions of leadership, your chances of "getting ahead" are going to be limited, especially when you're competing against natives. The reason is sadly, the culture is very reserved and cautious, so as an "outsider" it's going to take A LONG time before you can be…

One thought I hate reading this is: do you need upward mobility? It's a serious question because in an ideal (IMHO) society, people can have full and satisfying lives with security and family without becoming a CEO. In the US, for example, there's an obsession with "getting ahead" but, by definition, only so many people can get ahead. And why do they want to? Because, at least in part, a basic job in insufficient to…

I don’t think it’s a question of needing anything. Do you need to immigrate to Germany? Or another country for that matter?

No - why do you do it? For upward mobility in a job market that is screaming out for foreign skilled workers.

When that upward mobility is no longer there, why should they stay?

Re: Why skilled workers come to Germany and then leave again

#554

Post by warumdarum »

mr_toad wrote: post #405
warumdarum wrote: post #361

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And that is what binds them together, they all took the leap of faith, they all seperated from the old world, they all brought only their work and their spirit. The us is a phyle of choice and you must have made that choice to belong to it. This Choice is also the freedom so often referenced. Which also means you can leave the us by abandoning its values.

> The us is a phyle of choice Well, except for the people who didn’t have any choice.

Which is why they are not part of the us. They should get a severance package, yhe ability to leave to a country of choice and the ability to choose to choose the us.

Re: Why skilled workers come to Germany and then leave again

#555

Post by DStiego »

AdamN wrote: post #547
xhevahir wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I spent a day or so traveling through Germany with my parents a few weeks ago as part of a (much longer) trip and a common refrain during that day was, "So much for German efficiency." Frankfurt's airport was a tiring and frustrating experience, with long delays on the tarmac, at baggage claim, at the check-in counter, etc. One rest stop on the highway was half way dismantled, with restrooms filthy enough that everyb…

German culture is thorough, not efficient.

Correct. German culture is to take any idea to its conclusion, until the idea is dead.

Re: Why skilled workers come to Germany and then leave again

#556

Post by InfinityByTen »

It's interesting how quickly any discussion about immigrant/expat life in Germany becomes about language. That has to account for something.

After my tenure of 11 years in the country, my impression is that there is a deeper sense of "us" v/s "them"; the language is the most PC way to express it.

If you're in the category of "us" you don't complain about the taxes or things being closed on Sundays, because you're supposed to "understand" that there's a welfare state (which has been a myth for a while now and cracks are showing up since covid). If you're in the "us", you don't claim bureaucracy is treacherous, because the language should have equipped you to fight it. You might be in the "us", if you believe with every bit of your being that rules and regulations is the best way to ensure everyone behaves properly and everything works efficiently.

If you dare challenge (m)any of these and you don't speak German good enough, it's the language. If you speak the language, then you're not "integrated". Maybe that's immigration everywhere, but I feel in Germany, there is a rather narrow band you get to be in "acceptably".

Re: Why skilled workers come to Germany and then leave again

#557

Post by hollerith »

IncreasePosts wrote: post #333
denismenace wrote: post #260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nonsense. Just because there was no stricly "unifed" (whatever that means) German culture does not mean that German culture does not exist. There is clearly a shared core of culture and ethnicity to all the listed peoples. But again you can continue with trying to make it seem as if everything is equal to everything else. I'll leave you with this little thought experiment. If we put a northen German, a Swiss German a…

Why would German culture start before unification, but American culture pops out of nothing at the founding of the nation?

Because they've been living where they're living now for about 1500 years, speaking the same language or more precisely speaking a group of closely-related languages, descended from the same small initial population.

Re: Why skilled workers come to Germany and then leave again

#558

Post by sinuhe69 »

SepiaSapient wrote: post #399
froh wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

errr, no? when you work here for long enough you accrue pension benefits which are paid out wherever you live. if you retire abroad you spend the pension abroad. that's a net loss for the nation.

Wouldn't the lack of medical expenditure win out against the loss of consumption from a pension?

Medical and long-term care expenses outweighs by a large margin the loss of consumption or tax revenue for retirees, especially for a welfare state like Germany. Many studies in Germany have showed exactly this constellation of cost-benefit.

Re: Why skilled workers come to Germany and then leave again

#559

Post by DStiego »

I see two big problems:

1. A "meta-problem": While many Germans agree that things are bad, people favour completely opposite solutions.

My meta-solution to that would be decentralisation and letting more things be decided locally, but unfortunately Germans are united in favouring centralisation these days.

2. There's a strong superposition of "things are bad" and "we are still the best"; a high degree of defensiveness and stubbornness. This was accurately described as "presumptuousness" in another comment.

Re: Why skilled workers come to Germany and then leave again

#560

Post by rf15 »

InfinityByTen wrote: post #556

It's interesting how quickly any discussion about immigrant/expat life in Germany becomes about language. That has to account for something. After my tenure of 11 years in the country, my impression is that there is a deeper sense of "us" v/s "them"; the language is the most PC way to express it. If you're in the category of "us" you don't complain about the taxes or things being closed on Sundays, because you're sup…

I have like a dozen different german friends, and it's nothing like you say: everyone in the country curses the bureaucracy, every sunday is like "oh let's quickly get something from the shops oh no wait it's sunday uuuugh"

The taxes seem largely fine relative to the cost of living there, with people living in poorer regions at an advantage even due to the Freibetrag.

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