Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Chat Control passed first round in EU Parliament

heise.de

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

241–250 of 282 posts

Re: Chat Control passed first round in EU Parliament

#241

Post by ActorNightly »

dgellow wrote: post #168
ActorNightly wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

I don’t understand your point. We do not need chat control.

We do.

In the past, pre public availability of internet chat rooms, people used to be a lot more reserved, and speech had a consequence of public accountability.

Now, anyone can be anonymous, post anything that comes to mind without any real repercussion. People love to criticize laws like UK has against hate speech online, citing lack of freedom, but most people that got punished with that law will be seen in public saying the same shit.

There are 2 options to fix this. First, is no internet anonymity. Second is surveillance. The latter option is preferable, because it de-anonymizes you only to the government entities, not everyone.

The famous argument is "don't give the government power that you don't want the political opposition to have" is silly. As been proven so clearly, if the political opposition takes power, they will just do what they want ignoring the law anyways. Its much better to create systems in place that allow current sane governments to implement guardrails to prevent nefarious ideas from taking hold in the first place, and silencing the people that would have been ostasized in public in the pre internet days anyways.

Re: Chat Control passed first round in EU Parliament

#242

Post by __MatrixMan__ »

Bender wrote: post #232
__MatrixMan__ wrote: post #230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Joining a private space that's set up for steganography, or facilitating such a space either by self hosting or by logging in somewhere as an administrator, is sort of at odds with the nothing-to-see-here approach that steganography takes. An adversary that has compromised one message can then use whatever metadata is intrinsic to that space to suss out which other plaintexts might contain a secret, and which other h…

In that case I think you may be out of luck as most platform change the images. Sometimes they just remove exif data but some compress or optimize in their view the images. In that case maybe find a public site that allows archive files.

My point is that text is a better medium for this anyhow.

Re: Chat Control passed first round in EU Parliament

#243

Post by aeternum »

ryandrake wrote: post #79
iamnothere wrote: post #2

From a post on Mastodon: > democracy is when you repeatedly push for unpopular laws until they pass, and the more times you do it the more democratic it is It is unlikely that 60 additional “no” votes can be found by Thursday to stop this.

They only have to win once. You have to win every time.

Just as there a counter-suits perhaps we need more counter-laws. When something like this is defeated, a law is instead introduced to make chat control explicitly illegal.

Re: Chat Control passed first round in EU Parliament

#244

Post by CrisMystik »

A1kmm wrote: post #231
isodev wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yup, edited to clarify I mean the MEPs bring “the will of the people”. Clearly not enough has happened on local level to raise awareness / lobby against chat control. I don’t think many outside tech are even aware if the slippery slope of the surveillance machinery.

The European Council (heads of states) sets the agenda, the European Commission (delegates from each state) writes the laws, and the MEPs (elected by the public) decide whether or not to accept the laws. The Council decided Chat Control was on the agenda, the Commission wrote the law, and the MEPs voted to reject said law in March. Then the president of the parliament (not the MEPs at large) asked the Council to igno…

The first sentence is correct, but

> The Council decided Chat Control was on the agenda

The Council is different from the European Council (yes, the treaty drafters were not much creative in naming institutions), the latter is composed of the heads of states and sets the agenda like you said, while the former is composed on ministers in the policy area under discussion, and it's a "co-legislator" together for the Parliament (on most areas, including Chat Control 1.0 & 2.0, both must agree to pass an act).

The issue here (it's part of the "democratic deficits") is that, in its second reading, the EP needs an absolute majority to amend/reject the Council first reading, and a simple majority to approve it and pass it into law.

Re: Chat Control passed first round in EU Parliament

#245

Post by lxxxvi »

belowavgiq wrote: post #3

"The procedure now chosen gives the proponents of Chat Control a significant tactical advantage. Since the law is in its second reading, an absolute majority of 361 votes of all parliament members is required for amendments or a renewed rejection on Thursday. In contrast, a simple majority of the MEPs present is sufficient for the other side. As many parliamentarians have historically already departed by the last day…

> So, if I'm reading this correctly, Chat Control is bound to become law? and this is after I think 2/3 rejections, how democratic of the EU.

Yes, (un?)fortunately that's how democracy works. You keep trying until you get the required majority. No different than elections.

And now, instead of blaming "democracy" or the EU, how about we look at people we all elected to our national and EU institutions who are now making this happen.

And just preemptively, there's is not a single person in a decision-making position on this issue whose power wasn't gifted to them either directly or indirectly by the voters. So let's not blame the EU for people being dumb with their votes.

Re: Chat Control passed first round in EU Parliament

#246

Post by lxxxvi »

sunshine-o wrote: post #233
dgellow wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Every single democratic system relies on norms at some level. Democratic isn’t a boolean flag. When the French prime minister is using the 49-3 rule to bypass the parliament that’s undemocratic, that doesn’t make the system itself undemocratic. When a US president is using an executive order to pass a law that’s undemocratic, that doesn’t make the system itself undemocratic. Here the maneuver goes against the spirit…

No. The way the EU is designed has nothing to do with the US or France. First the Parliament and Council (the bodies democratically elected) do not have power of legislative initiative. Then the Commission, which is a "super" executive power, is not democratically elected. Unlike France or the US (the two you mentioned). The EU has an architecture that is fundamentally different from the US or French system. In many…

In parliamentary democracies, governments tend to not be democratically elected. The Commission is no different than most European governments when it comes to that.

Re: Chat Control passed first round in EU Parliament

#247

Post by lxxxvi »

dgellow wrote: post #169
isodev wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> how democratic of the EU Well, these are the MEPs elected by member states. We don’t like the outcome but this means chat control is well supported within the government of each country.

The parliament rejected the proposal twice. Yes the governments support it, but not the people of European countries

And who exactly elects the governments I wonder? Aliens?

Re: Chat Control passed first round in EU Parliament

#248

Post by brikym »

sucrosesucrose wrote: post #115

No one will do anything to stop it, nor ChatControl 2.0 in the future. No one will revolt, or seize the government in response to anything that happens. The world that Liberal Democracy has built has escape valves (tv/streaming/videogames/entertainment, the illusion of democratic choice, mass media and information overload, public demonstrations) for the anger of the massed which despite in older times caused a gover…

Exactly. And don't forget complaining on the internet. But algorithms will ensure few will see it.
Post reply on HN