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Why skilled workers come to Germany and then leave again

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Re: Why skilled workers come to Germany and then leave again

#321

Post by [deleted] »

dgs_sgd wrote: post #226
ikut3hva wrote: post #165

Hi everyone I don’t usually comment on topics like this because there are so many biases and different perspectives involved. In the end, I believe only the person who has actually gone through the experience can truly understand it; otherwise, it often becomes just another judgment. We are an ASEAN family earning more than €200k gross annually (sorry for mentioning the TC, but there is a reason for it—please keep re…

I appreciate your perspective, but I was curious what B1 proficiency actually entails and this is what I found [1]: - understand the main points of clear standard speech on familiar topics such as work, school, or leisure - manage most situations that occur while traveling in German-speaking areas - produce simple, connected text on familiar subjects - describe experiences, events, dreams, hopes, and ambitions, and b…

[deleted]

Re: Why skilled workers come to Germany and then leave again

#322

Post by shakow »

ikut3hva wrote: post #165

Hi everyone I don’t usually comment on topics like this because there are so many biases and different perspectives involved. In the end, I believe only the person who has actually gone through the experience can truly understand it; otherwise, it often becomes just another judgment. We are an ASEAN family earning more than €200k gross annually (sorry for mentioning the TC, but there is a reason for it—please keep re…

Having B1 seems like a really lenient condition to get citizenship. I got B2 after 6 months of Erasmus, and I have B1 in Russian even though I never even stepped in the country.

Have you even tried to learn German, and if so what is so hard that you can't even get B1, although you stayed long enough to have kids speaking natively the language?

Re: Why skilled workers come to Germany and then leave again

#323

Post by joe_mamba »

eldaisfish wrote: post #233
joe_mamba wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone who lived in the US briefly, I found Americans are just a lot more hospitable to foreigners, than Germans and most other Europeans in general. Probably because there's no such thing as an US-American ethnicity, but there definitely is at least one or more unique and very distinct ethnicities and cultures for every European country, and simply getting the passport as a foreign adult, does not also buy you i…

sad to see this downvoted because it is very much true. European society loves to pretend that they are these progressive, enlightened people. In reality, what they are is just better at hiding their racism and xenophobia. Your last point is largely wrong. The primary difference between immigrants to the US and to Europe is in qualifications. The majority of US immigrants are skilled. The majority of immigrants to Eu…

>In reality, what they are is just better at hiding their racism and xenophobia.

It's not xenofobia, it's just a rigid caste system with little to no upward mobility for immigrants, setup for the economic benefit of the locals at the expense of most immigrants. Sweden and others for example has no inheritance taxes so locals inheriting property and assets get a massive leg up at advancing in society with little effort, over even the hardest working immigrants making the system feel unfair and rigged against you if you're a high earning immigrant paying high taxes. Something less of an issue for immigrants in the US.

Xenofobia implies discrimination based on skin color or ethnicity, but that's not the case here, as white european immigrants also fall under this trap because they don't have the citizenship, language, bureaucratic system knowledge, connections, inheritance to get the chill lives the locals do, and get stuck in less desirable jobs with little to no upward mobility even if they learn the language. I'm EU native living and working in another EU country and feel this regularly across all society along with the other immigrants I know here.

> The majority of US immigrants are skilled.

Maybe in SV tech companies, but most illegals to US are not skilled, but they're tolerated as long as they don't break any major laws because they do the tough and dirty jobs for low pay the natives don't want to do otherwise they risk deportation.

The difference is EU doesn't do deportations and instead showers illegals with welfare, meaning they're not forced to integrate and become self sufficient ASAP like in US, and it's easier to stay a perpetual victim in need of state assistance.

Re: Why skilled workers come to Germany and then leave again

#324

Post by BeetleB »

_zoltan_ wrote: post #120
throwawaypath wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>First, things are bad: trains are getting worse every year, the highways are in disrepair (ask me about Bonn!), overloaded doctors, impossibly slow bureaucracy, economic crisis, growing inequality, housing crisis, and so on. Any minute now those millions of doctors, lawyers, and engineers from the MENA countries that flooded Germany the past decade will fix all that! Any minute!

that was such a self inflicted wound that Europe, and Germany, did to itself. No wonder people are voting AfD. and for the downvoters: these are facts. this is what the politician in Europe campaigned with, built platforms on and said for everything. "We'll get engineers, and doctors! Lots of workers!" Fast forward 5 years... How's the Willkommenkultur going you ask? Look at AfD. Look recently at the 10 million Switz…

> and for the downvoters: these are facts.

One would expect you would follow that sentence with some facts...

Re: Why skilled workers come to Germany and then leave again

#325

Post by bcye »

aleph_minus_one wrote: post #272
bcye wrote: post #257

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Someone wearing a hijab looks out of place in the land of the Döner?

> Someone wearing a hijab looks out of place in the land of the Döner? The history with the Turkish gastarbeiters is a complicated one. Please don't twist the knife in the wound.

How is this twisting the knife in the wound? I wanted to say that they (and other people wearing hijabs) are part of German culture.

Re: Why skilled workers come to Germany and then leave again

#326

Post by [deleted] »

kuschku wrote: post #307
bcye wrote: post #244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Every European nation state is built around ethnicity as the bedrock of society. What do you mean by it being the bedrock of society? I haven't found ethnicity to be an important part about being a citizen here at all.

> A nation state, or nation-state, is a political entity in which the state (a centralized political organization ruling over a population within a territory) and the nation (a community based on a common identity) are congruent. See also: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nation_state The traditional view taught in history books is as follows: > Before the french revolution, states extended as far as their kings' milita…

[deleted]

Re: Why skilled workers come to Germany and then leave again

#327

Post by FabCH »

kuschku wrote: post #307
bcye wrote: post #244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Every European nation state is built around ethnicity as the bedrock of society. What do you mean by it being the bedrock of society? I haven't found ethnicity to be an important part about being a citizen here at all.

> A nation state, or nation-state, is a political entity in which the state (a centralized political organization ruling over a population within a territory) and the nation (a community based on a common identity) are congruent. See also: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nation_state The traditional view taught in history books is as follows: > Before the french revolution, states extended as far as their kings' milita…

YSK: This is a disputed view. Wether nation comes first, or the state, is something academic historians don’t agree on.

While it sort-of fits if you limit it to France, it breaks down even when you cross the border to Germany.

Three different countries speak German as their official language, and Germany itself wasn’t really a nation-state until Nazism. It was a multi-ethnic empire before that, and a bunch of random kingdoms and ducheys before that. And after 1945, it was not a nation-state either, since it was somewhat famously 2 states.

Re: Why skilled workers come to Germany and then leave again

#328

Post by stickfigure »

baranul wrote: post #313
stickfigure wrote: post #268

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The difference is that - excepting about 1.4% of the population - everyone here in the US is either an immigrant or descended from immigrants. Most of them long after the Mayflower sailed. However long it takes to create a new capital-E Ethnicity, it hasn't been long enough.

> excepting about 1.4% of the population - everyone here in the US is either an immigrant or descended from immigrants Your data and percentage, is very wrong. America has significant Black and Indigenous (usually referred to as Indian or Native) populations. Around 15% Black and 3% Indigenous. Combined, they make up around 18% of the US population, with wild and vigorous arguments they are even a greater percentage…

The black population of the US is unquestionably descended from immigrants.

1.4% of the U.S. population is "American Indian and Alaska Native alone". 2.9% is "alone or in combination with another race" per the 2020 census.

I have no idea what you're going on about.

Re: Why skilled workers come to Germany and then leave again

#329

Post by baranul »

zerr wrote: post #284
lispisok wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So your complaint is you wanted permanent residence in Germany but did not want to learn to speak German?

Permanent residency is a business deal between two entities: an individual and a state. It has nothing to do with linguistics. There are many Germans permanently living in Vietnam, Thailand and other Southeast Asian countries, who never bothered to even learn how to say Hello, not to mention any certificate or exam...

Exactly! Though it often seems that people conveniently forget the reverse scenario. Them in other countries is fine and relax about requirements, others in their country, not so much.

Re: Why skilled workers come to Germany and then leave again

#330

Post by jyounker »

ikut3hva wrote: post #165

Hi everyone I don’t usually comment on topics like this because there are so many biases and different perspectives involved. In the end, I believe only the person who has actually gone through the experience can truly understand it; otherwise, it often becomes just another judgment. We are an ASEAN family earning more than €200k gross annually (sorry for mentioning the TC, but there is a reason for it—please keep re…

You're always going to be an outsider if you can't speak the language, no matter where you go in the world. B1 is a reasonable level, as it's the bare minimum for doing day-to-day tasks in the local language.

I honestly can't image planning to live in any country for the long term without learning the local language to at least this level.

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