Why skilled workers come to Germany and then leave again • Hacker News Board

Re: Why skilled workers come to Germany and then leave again

#291

Post by stickfigure » Tue, Jul 07, 2026, 9:36 PM UTC

bellowsgulch wrote: post #224

joe_mamba wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone who lived in the US briefly, I found Americans are just a lot more hospitable to foreigners, than Germans and most other Europeans in general. Probably because there's no such thing as an US-American ethnicity, but there definitely is at least one or more unique and very distinct ethnicities and cultures for every European country, and simply getting the passport as a foreign adult, does not also buy you i…

The whole immigrants who don't integrate seems to be a constant issue in every developed country across the globe, with the exception of maybe Japan, who is xenophobic enough that you wouldn't want to try to become Japanese anyway. Canada, England, France, and the US, to name a few, seem to have done it wrong considering how immigration is a constant complaint and weaponized topic in their politics, but likewise Japa…

Immigration is a hot topic in every society. You can hear people in Arizona kvetching about the Californians that move there.

Re: Why skilled workers come to Germany and then leave again

#292

Post by throw-the-towel » Tue, Jul 07, 2026, 9:36 PM UTC

throw-the-towel wrote: post #144

malshe wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know the US gets a lot of flak due to the current administration's policies and actions. Despite that it is still the best country for immigrants with the caveat 'Assuming the immigrant makes every effort to integrate (learning the language, respecting local people/customs etc)'

More generally, I'd say the Americas are a step above Europe when it comes to ease of integration. In South America, people often assumed I'm immigrating, and made it clear I was welcome. In Europe, where I actually tried to immigrate, I'm treated as just a long-staying tourist. (Not blaming anyone here, they can run their countries however I want, but it's just silly to expect that people who have choice would come…

s/however I want/however they want/; that was a really silly typo.

Re: Why skilled workers come to Germany and then leave again

#293

Post by SepiaSapient » Tue, Jul 07, 2026, 9:39 PM UTC

cloudie78 wrote: post #155

probably_wrong wrote: post #48

I migrated to Germany 10+ years ago and I'm still here. Based on my limited experience, there are two big issues. First, things are bad : trains are getting worse every year, the highways are in disrepair (ask me about Bonn!), overloaded doctors, impossibly slow bureaucracy, economic crisis, growing inequality, housing crisis, and so on. If you're a fresh immigrant who cannot find a job in an economic crisis (aka "mo…

What has kept you from achieving C2, you’ve been there for 10y+

As a inverse example: a (German) family member has lived fully immersed for 20+ years in my Spanish speaking country.

I doubt he could pass a C2 level test, there's simply a hard limit in language learning for most people without academic instruction. It's also pointless, he's had a long career in a professional field where clear communication is mission critical. Furthermore even if another foreigner with a shiny Spanish C2 certificate appeared they would fare worse, because they wouldn't know the local social minutia.

Aside from jobs in the Literature department or something, a C2 requirement is a "foreigners need not apply" sign.

Re: Why skilled workers come to Germany and then leave again

#294

Post by eldaisfish » Tue, Jul 07, 2026, 9:39 PM UTC

simianwords wrote: post #34

dbspin wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Physiognomic appearance does not equate with genetically discrete populations, so while we can obviously visually identify that people have broadly asian, african, european, polynesian dissent etc; this doesn't equate with other factors stereotypically associated with those 'races'. Race is a folk taxonomy. Ethnicity and genetics are complex - like most things when you make more than a cursory investigation. So while…

> this doesn't equate with other factors stereotypically associated who is suggesting this? what do you think the people in the survey are asked? They were asked if races exist and they definitely do. White people exist and Black people exist. Normal people won't read your research papers lmao. Colloquially, races do exist and normal people should think that races do exist.

these conversations are always incredibly frustrating.

On one extreme are people who believe that white people are inherently better than black people because of some genetic inheritance. This is obvious nonsense.

On the other extreme are the people like the one you are arguing with who claim that race does not exist because all humans are biologically identical. This is also nonsense as any black person in the US will tell you.

What you seem to be arguing is that ethnicity, and the genetic effects of ethnicity, are real. They are. Race as biological construct, with consequent societal effects is also not real. White people are not inherently more intelligent that Black people.

The other person is technically right, but is one of those people who seem to believe that biological differences do not matter in society, one of those "i don't see colour" types. Race as a social construct is very much real.

Re: Why skilled workers come to Germany and then leave again

#295

Post by eldaisfish » Tue, Jul 07, 2026, 9:40 PM UTC

aleph_minus_one wrote: post #245

malshe wrote: post #130

Here is my anecdote. I was in Germany recently and met with a South American woman. We briefly talked about our immigrant experiences. She is now a German citizen married to a German man. However, she said she can't identify as a German because nobody made her feel like one. By contrast, when I became an American citizen, my American friends (white and hispanic) insisted that they attend the naturalization ceremony.

> she said she can't identify as a German because nobody made her feel like one As a native German, I actually have difficulties with concepts like "identifying as [nationality]", "feeling like [nationality]" or "naturalization". I really would say these are concepts that US-Americans (or people who were "shaped" by US mentality) seem to deeply care about, but Germans very typically don't. So, my opinion/advice is: s…

would you say that a swiss german and someone from Hamburg have more in common than someone from Bavaria and someone from Helsinki?

Re: Why skilled workers come to Germany and then leave again

#296

Post by ogou » Tue, Jul 07, 2026, 9:41 PM UTC

Berlin is one the cheapest capital cities in Europe. As such it attracts a huge amount of immigrants. That low cost is reflected in the pay. An experienced full stack developer would be fortunate to get 90-95k euro annually. That is plenty of money if you intend to stay in Berlin, but is not something you can save up and build a future with or transfer to another country. Also, housing is a huge problem there and it can take 6 months to find even a basic flat. I am an American developer that lived there for many years and my co-workers were usually Turkish, Polish, Ukrainian, Iranian, Russian, Lebanese, and now Indian. It was rare to find an actual German coder.

I had a hard time with German work expectations and management style. Also, their engineering approach is thorough but incredibly slow and over-built. The environment is hierarchy and credential based with little room for individual initiative or creative problem solving. I was used to improvising, experimenting, and thinking outside the box. It was not a good fit.

Re: Why skilled workers come to Germany and then leave again

#297

Post by rayiner » Tue, Jul 07, 2026, 9:42 PM UTC

ikut3hva wrote: post #165

Hi everyone I don’t usually comment on topics like this because there are so many biases and different perspectives involved. In the end, I believe only the person who has actually gone through the experience can truly understand it; otherwise, it often becomes just another judgment. We are an ASEAN family earning more than €200k gross annually (sorry for mentioning the TC, but there is a reason for it—please keep re…

> Story 2: In an international working environment, German may not matter much at the IC level. But I’ve seen countless situations where Germans exchange a glance with each other, and suddenly the final decision is not what was agreed upon in the meeting. Over time, I’ve learned that there are many unwritten rules behind the scenes, and when you speak their language, you start to understand them.

I mean, how many CEOs of major German companies are non-German? The country does seem much more insular than the Anglosphere.

Re: Why skilled workers come to Germany and then leave again

#298

Post by baranul » Tue, Jul 07, 2026, 9:43 PM UTC

eldaisfish wrote: post #223

ikut3hva wrote: post #165

Hi everyone I don’t usually comment on topics like this because there are so many biases and different perspectives involved. In the end, I believe only the person who has actually gone through the experience can truly understand it; otherwise, it often becomes just another judgment. We are an ASEAN family earning more than €200k gross annually (sorry for mentioning the TC, but there is a reason for it—please keep re…

There is yet another angle that people don't like to discuss because it is uncomfortable. Every European nation state is built around ethnicity as the bedrock of society. This makes it nigh on impossible to integrate fully in these countries. The way this manifests is different in each country, but the fundamental reason is the same. In the german case, take the words of Messut Ozil, the former footballer - when the…

> I want to be clear, not every German person is a frothing racist, i would argue that...

Of course not every German has fallen into the abyss of such insanity, but sorry to inform you (for those that have never been), way too many have. There are also levels to it as well, where various people may not be so open about it, but very much embrace and practice it. This then is reflected in housing, jobs, or even nightclubs.

> The way this manifests is different in each country, but the fundamental reason is the same...

While in agreement with this argument, the levels of hostility can be very different, depending on the European country. Views and treatment of other people in regards to color or xenophobia in the Netherlands, Germany, or the Czech Republic can be wildly different.

The US and Canada should not be viewed as better, but how things manifest themselves are different, which can result in different experiences and outcomes. Maybe better or maybe even worse.

Re: Why skilled workers come to Germany and then leave again

#299

Post by goodroot » Tue, Jul 07, 2026, 9:44 PM UTC

I'm a Canadian/German dual; a praire, hockey-playing, hard-O Canadian at that.

There is nothing German about me, apart from some family myths.

Every 8 or 9 years my passport renewal at the German embassy plays out like that scene in Inglorious Basterds, where Brad Pitt's character Aldo Rain tries to pose as Italian stunt-man Enzo Gorlami.

Long German pre-amble

"Err-ahh... err - nine."

Pause and stare

"Ok een Eenglish 'zen."

Re: Why skilled workers come to Germany and then leave again

#300

Post by justacrow » Tue, Jul 07, 2026, 9:44 PM UTC

ryandrake wrote: post #251

parineum wrote: post #246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A country like the USA?

Not really. There are many immigrant-majority communities in the USA where you can live most of your day-to-day without needing to speak much English.

Any $200k+ SW engineering jobs?