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Chat Control passed first round in EU Parliament

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Re: Chat Control passed first round in EU Parliament

#181

Post by inigyou »

belowavgiq wrote: post #3

"The procedure now chosen gives the proponents of Chat Control a significant tactical advantage. Since the law is in its second reading, an absolute majority of 361 votes of all parliament members is required for amendments or a renewed rejection on Thursday. In contrast, a simple majority of the MEPs present is sufficient for the other side. As many parliamentarians have historically already departed by the last day…

What percentage of EU citizens support Chat Control and what percentage oppose it?

Re: Chat Control passed first round in EU Parliament

#182

Post by chrystalkey »

miroljub wrote: post #49
chrystalkey wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You have apparently no idea what an actual dictatorship is

I suppose you know? Now go enlighten us on how the EU is super democratic and way better than the worst dictatorship that ever existed, so we may be happy we are not the worst.

Oh please. That is not and never was my argument. I just said, it is not a dictatorship. No Fun discussion anything with you.

If you'll indulge my argument: I have a fair amount of confidence in the stability of the system and fairness of elections. It may be rigged in favour of some interested parties, but there are solid ways to get the people currently in power to be replaced by others and still retain stability in the system. Not so in any of: Iran, Russia, Albany, Eastern Germany, The phillipines, China, Belarus, Sudan, ... That is my whole point. The rest is a different topic, but cynicism usually does not help in doing something.

Re: Chat Control passed first round in EU Parliament

#183

Post by lyu07282 »

dgellow wrote: post #164
jerkstate wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In some ways, the concentration of power in a dictatorship might be better, if the dictator was well morally aligned with the people. This is pretty much the exact argument that Hayek makes - socialism leads to fascism through political gridlock.

Did you mean to say liberalism?

The right actually believes the EU and the German government for example have a far-left ideology it's very common, I even once heard someone say they thought the World Economic Forum is communist. The right captures these resentments towards neoliberal corruption and undemocratic decision making and straight up funnel that energy towards anti-immigration, anti-woke and notably pro-russian politics.

Re: Chat Control passed first round in EU Parliament

#184

Post by inigyou »

dgellow wrote: post #161
vslira wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the EU as a system has an undemocratic backdoor it's descriptively correct to call it undemocratic. Not to play too hard on the HN user stereotype, but you wouldn't call a computer system that is mostly secure other than a known privilege escalation exploit secure, would you?

Every single democratic system relies on norms at some level. Democratic isn’t a boolean flag. When the French prime minister is using the 49-3 rule to bypass the parliament that’s undemocratic, that doesn’t make the system itself undemocratic. When a US president is using an executive order to pass a law that’s undemocratic, that doesn’t make the system itself undemocratic. Here the maneuver goes against the spirit…

If France has a way for the prime minister to bypass democracy that's undemocratic.

Re: Chat Control passed first round in EU Parliament

#185

Post by inigyou »

dgellow wrote: post #138
order-matters wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think their point is that you lose some battles in a war, chat Control 1.0 is a battle that was already lost. While it is still worthwhile to make an effort to retake lost ground there, that can be done strategically and through habitual effort and does not demand immediate attention the same way an imminent threat of losing new ground would be

> chat Control 1.0 is a battle that was already lost That’s not true, the previous instance of it expired, and the parliament rejected it. It wasn’t already lost, it was actually a win for people against the proposal

I can't actually think of a good reason that the law should prohibit a company from having the option to automatically scan private messages for CSAM. Can you?

Certain implementations may fall afoul of data protection laws however.

Re: Chat Control passed first round in EU Parliament

#186

Post by charcircuit »

ryandrake wrote: post #79
iamnothere wrote: post #2

From a post on Mastodon: > democracy is when you repeatedly push for unpopular laws until they pass, and the more times you do it the more democratic it is It is unlikely that 60 additional “no” votes can be found by Thursday to stop this.

They only have to win once. You have to win every time.

To repeal it you only need to win once too.

Re: Chat Control passed first round in EU Parliament

#187

Post by Lio »

spwa4 wrote: post #123
Lio wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Now go enlighten us on how the EU is super democratic and way better than the worst dictatorship that ever existed, so we may be happy we are not the worst. Well they're not rounding people because of their religion or sexuality and putting them in "retraining" camps yet. Or using "criminals" as enforced organ donors. I suppose there's that. The EU is being a bit short-sighted and shit with regard to Chat Control b…

And you don't see the problem with allowing processes like this just before the extreme right might gain control of the French presidency AND gets a shot at the German chancillary (even if, yes, it's likely to fail)? The ability to make laws for the entire EU, overriding popular opinion ... You really have trouble imagining what this could lead to? https://www.bbc.com/news/live/c70yk5xjyl1t https://www.politico.eu/eu…

> And you don't see the problem with allowing processes like this

Oh, I 100% see the problem with it. I think pushing draconian laws, that have already been defeated, in secret backroom deals is dodgy as.

I think you have some very valid points.

I think the centre and left just see opportunities to act without compromise, never considering that it will piss of their electorates. The electorate will reply by voting just to piss off the politicians regardless of the consequences. Just like with Brexit.

That still doesn't mean that the EU is currently worse than actual dictatorships.

Re: Chat Control passed first round in EU Parliament

#188

Post by iamnothere »

SpicyLemonZest wrote: post #156
iamnothere wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Since you don’t consider that “good faith” I have rephrased it for you, in a format you may prefer: > EUR02a. In the interest of protecting children, some politicians are calling for the automatic searching of all personal electronic mail and messages of each EU subject in the search for dangerous, illegal child pornography. Suspected cases will be notified to the police. An advantage of this could be that more offen…

I understand that you're trying to dunk on me but I don't get what the point is supposed to be. It's certainly possible to come up with other bad ways to ask the question. If someone was interested in genuinely understanding the public's opinion, rather than including a demand to take some particular perspective, they would ask things like "Do you support online platforms scanning all personal messages for child porn…

I suppose the gold standard would be to present detailed arguments from each side with evidence (if any), for context. Barring that, the original question did seem to provide a rough summary of each side’s position. It may be weighted towards the anti Chat Control side, with the formulation “pro says this, but anti says this, and imagine that you are affected”. So perhaps they could have asked a reverse formulation 50% of the time to be more fair. But the poll was commissioned by Breyer, and of course he wanted to bolster his position.

Your context-free formulation on the other hand provides no information for voters to weigh. Privacy or child porn detection? Well I guess I’ll pick child porn detection. Oh, you wanted to do what to my privacy? Never mind!

Even your slightly longer formulation doesn’t really explain what scanning means and how that might affect people and society. Most people aren’t familiar enough with technical and legal details to dig into the implications without added context.

Re: Chat Control passed first round in EU Parliament

#189

Post by chrystalkey »

73738384 wrote: post #21
chrystalkey wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You have apparently no idea what an actual dictatorship is

The European Comission is the top decision maker of the EU. The European citizen has zero (0) influence on the members or actions of the EC. No different than the politburo in China.

That is incorrect. Usually, the legislation happens in the trilogue, which is an abomination and everything but well representing it's citizens interest, but the Commission can do very very little if the council says no. That again is a body consisting of elected officials with varying degrees of distance from a direct election. Best example for a change: everything that happened after Magyar replaced Orban in the council. This is just to say... Its complicated. The EU can definitely do with a reform and better, stronger democratic legitimacy.

Re: Chat Control passed first round in EU Parliament

#190

Post by breach050 »

inigyou wrote: post #184
dgellow wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Every single democratic system relies on norms at some level. Democratic isn’t a boolean flag. When the French prime minister is using the 49-3 rule to bypass the parliament that’s undemocratic, that doesn’t make the system itself undemocratic. When a US president is using an executive order to pass a law that’s undemocratic, that doesn’t make the system itself undemocratic. Here the maneuver goes against the spirit…

If France has a way for the prime minister to bypass democracy that's undemocratic.

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