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Chat Control passed first round in EU Parliament

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Re: Chat Control passed first round in EU Parliament

#111

Post by iamnothere »

iknowstuff wrote: post #83
iamnothere wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is slightly different than China, China has implemented hotlines/apps for citizen complaints in response to social pressure, and it actually attempts to address those complaints.

https://citizens-initiative.europa.eu/index_en

This is for proposing legislation, not fixing local quality of life issues, and the success rate has been rather poor. China’s system has a broad scale, but is directed at local problems and has a very high success rate.

As I understand it, many of the issues faced by petitioners in the past were due to local corruption; officials would physically prevent petitioners from traveling to the petition office to deliver a complaint. The new systems (12345, 12388, and the apps) are intended to bypass that and have done a decent job at reducing corruption.

The Citizen’s Initiative is more of a referendum system for proposing bills, but due to its non-binding nature those bills are often ignored. China’s system doesn’t necessarily bind the government to action either, but given the small scale of the problems they are motivated to fix them.

This does not excuse China’s human rights abuses, but if you’re going to be abused either way, I can see why some would prefer to do it in a place with a rising standard of living and with a government that seems interested in improving.

Re: Chat Control passed first round in EU Parliament

#112

Post by mosselman »

jmward01 wrote: post #109

All new laws should be given a trial period where the lawmakers are forced to live with them for 90 days before the public is subjected to them. At any time during that period lawmakers can change their vote.

This is an incredibly good idea. 90 days is too short to feel the effects of some things though. Better make it a year.

The downside is "lets try giving everyone basic income of $100k/week". But apart from that great!

Re: Chat Control passed first round in EU Parliament

#113

Post by belowavgiq »

Balinares wrote: post #54
belowavgiq wrote: post #3

"The procedure now chosen gives the proponents of Chat Control a significant tactical advantage. Since the law is in its second reading, an absolute majority of 361 votes of all parliament members is required for amendments or a renewed rejection on Thursday. In contrast, a simple majority of the MEPs present is sufficient for the other side. As many parliamentarians have historically already departed by the last day…

> So, if I'm reading this correctly, Chat Control [2.0, implied] is bound to become law? Nope. This is bad, but not THAT bad. This is an extension of the existing Chat Control 1.0, which was set to expire (or maybe already has, I didn't keep track). AIUI it gives chat companies permission to scan user chats for illicit content, but does not mandate it. This is bad, but it's not the much worse still Chat Control 2.0 t…

Thanks for the correction! I guess I can live with that.

Re: Chat Control passed first round in EU Parliament

#114

Post by mosselman »

yreg wrote: post #100

I was curious to see how the MEPs voted, you can check it here. https://howtheyvote.eu/votes/195338 For once I'm pleasantly surprised that everyone I voted for was against.

This is so cryptic that I wouldn't even know if for or against would mean for or against 'chat control'

Re: Chat Control passed first round in EU Parliament

#115

Post by sucrosesucrose »

No one will do anything to stop it, nor ChatControl 2.0 in the future. No one will revolt, or seize the government in response to anything that happens.

The world that Liberal Democracy has built has escape valves (tv/streaming/videogames/entertainment, the illusion of democratic choice, mass media and information overload, public demonstrations) for the anger of the massed which despite in older times caused a government to fall or a revolution to start, today cause nothing and are comfortably absorbed or even assimilated for profit by the system itself.

Re: Chat Control passed first round in EU Parliament

#116

Post by lukan »

sucrosesucrose wrote: post #115

No one will do anything to stop it, nor ChatControl 2.0 in the future. No one will revolt, or seize the government in response to anything that happens. The world that Liberal Democracy has built has escape valves (tv/streaming/videogames/entertainment, the illusion of democratic choice, mass media and information overload, public demonstrations) for the anger of the massed which despite in older times caused a gover…

In your doomed reality maybe, but in this reality it was already stopped a couple of times and chances are good, that it will be stopped again - unless people believe all is doomed.

Re: Chat Control passed first round in EU Parliament

#117

Post by belowavgiq »

isodev wrote: post #52
belowavgiq wrote: post #3

"The procedure now chosen gives the proponents of Chat Control a significant tactical advantage. Since the law is in its second reading, an absolute majority of 361 votes of all parliament members is required for amendments or a renewed rejection on Thursday. In contrast, a simple majority of the MEPs present is sufficient for the other side. As many parliamentarians have historically already departed by the last day…

> how democratic of the EU Well, these are the MEPs elected by member states. We don’t like the outcome but this means chat control is well supported within the government of each country.

uhm, the will of the people is often already half-lost with the politicians/parties they directly elect, so I would hardly consider another layer of representative "demo"cracy on top of another layer of representative democracy following the will of the people at all.

But true, I blamed this on the Commission when I should have just started with this criticism of the overall system.

Re: Chat Control passed first round in EU Parliament

#118

Post by atmosx »

Lio wrote: post #104
miroljub wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I suppose you know? Now go enlighten us on how the EU is super democratic and way better than the worst dictatorship that ever existed, so we may be happy we are not the worst.

> Now go enlighten us on how the EU is super democratic and way better than the worst dictatorship that ever existed, so we may be happy we are not the worst. Well they're not rounding people because of their religion or sexuality and putting them in "retraining" camps yet. Or using "criminals" as enforced organ donors. I suppose there's that. The EU is being a bit short-sighted and shit with regard to Chat Control b…

> Well they're not rounding people because of their religion or sexuality and putting them in "retraining" camps yet.

Right. They pay Turkey to do that: https://www.rescue.org/eu/article/what-eu-turkey-deal

I don’t think the EU is a classic dictatorship, but it’s a colossal failure nonetheless, has a severe lack of democracy and acceptance. And their personnel is mediocre, not like the US administration but it’s closer than ppl in this forum realize.

Re: Chat Control passed first round in EU Parliament

#120

Post by iamnothere »

jason1cho wrote: post #108
iamnothere wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is slightly different than China, China has implemented hotlines/apps for citizen complaints in response to social pressure, and it actually attempts to address those complaints.

While you can use the hotline in private, you can't object to any matter in public.

From what I can tell, there are many issues that aren’t off limits to criticize on Chinese social media. In fact, recurring social media complaints are what spurred development of the hotline system.

It’s mainly complaints that are considered sensitive or destabilizing that are suppressed. This should sound familiar to those of us in the West. Germany actually goes farther by directly funding left-wing protest groups, as these are not considered destabilizing.

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