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Mark Zuckerberg's biggest legal nightmare yet could cost Meta $1.4T

the-independent.com

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Re: Mark Zuckerberg's biggest legal nightmare yet could cost Meta $1.4T

#101

Post by palmotea »

afavour wrote: post #82
kridsdale1 wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I worked in the team at Facebook (2017-2019) relevant to this stuff. I saw (did not write) some of the documents cited. The rank and file engineers and designers and PMs doing the work were all morally correct people, working very hard all the time to steer the ship away from harm to normal people and toward establishing healthy relationships and media diet. We were consistently undermined and overruled by the Direct…

> The rank and file engineers and designers and PMs doing the work were all morally correct people Then why didn't they quit? I believe I could have gotten a job at Meta (and hey, maybe I'm wrong!) but I've never been able to stomach the idea of working on their products. If I can choose to avoid working on morally compromising things, why can't they? And look, I get it. If they didn't make it some other engineer wou…

>> The rank and file engineers and designers and PMs doing the work were all morally correct people

> Then why didn't they quit?

I can't speak for those people, but decisions like quitting your job aren't one-dimensional. Quitting a job can create severe hardships for a family, stress relationships to the breaking point, etc. The Bay Area is very expensive, so I'd imagine that's true even for workers making otherwise very good salaries at Facebook. Then consider that the harms caused by Facebook are remote, abstract, and diffuse. Also, making the pushing for the right decision to only get overruled by the people in power can feel like doing enough for many people.

Also, there's the frog in a pot effect: a lot of the problems with social media have only become well understood relatively recently. Maybe you'd chose no to join Facebook today, but would stay if you'd already worked there for 10 years.

> If I can choose to avoid working on morally compromising things, why can't they?

What other morally compromising things have you not chosen to avoid? The modern world is full of them, many of them well publicized even if they're not in-your-face. IMHO, it's impossible to avoid them all without killing yourself.

Re: Mark Zuckerberg's biggest legal nightmare yet could cost Meta $1.4T

#102

Post by NickC25 »

999900000999 wrote: post #51

I actually like Instagram, primarily for the ads. Most people don’t buy VSTs( music production software plugins ). I spend at least 50$ a month on them. Sunday I spent an hour browsing instagram waiting for an ad to appear again. It wasn’t in my ad history for some reason. I found it and made a purchase. I think these types of sites can work, if users can strictly op into what they see. For the most part my instagram…

If you need Instagram ads to tell you which VSTs to buy, you haven't:

1. spent enough time on KVR or Gearslutz, discussing with other musicians, hobbyists, plugin nerds and developers who are building and battle testing these plugins.

2. spent enough time making music....which is why you spend money on VSTs to begin with.

3. spent time learning to build your own plugins or VCV Rack modules.

4. watched YT videos made by your favorite producers telling you which ones they use, so you can get it, and then use it to make music. the idea is "hey if its good enough for (insert artists here), it's good enough for me". You wouldn't buy a plugin just to have it, especially when some of these plugins cost hundreds of dollars - you'd buy it to use it.

If you need to use instagram to tell you where concerts are, fine. But as a heads up, Youtube does this too! And it does so in a way that directly supports the artist. AFAIK Instagram doesn't pay artists for their content.

Re: Mark Zuckerberg's biggest legal nightmare yet could cost Meta $1.4T

#103

Post by slibhb »

We look back on the (at the time influential) claim that rock/metal/etc "corrupts the youth" as a quaint moral panic. Modern views about social media are our version of that same silly claim. Future people will look back on all these comments comparing Facebook to crack with the same amused bewilderment as we look back on the PMRC.

Re: Mark Zuckerberg's biggest legal nightmare yet could cost Meta $1.4T

#104

Post by smugma »

afavour wrote: post #82
kridsdale1 wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I worked in the team at Facebook (2017-2019) relevant to this stuff. I saw (did not write) some of the documents cited. The rank and file engineers and designers and PMs doing the work were all morally correct people, working very hard all the time to steer the ship away from harm to normal people and toward establishing healthy relationships and media diet. We were consistently undermined and overruled by the Direct…

> The rank and file engineers and designers and PMs doing the work were all morally correct people Then why didn't they quit? I believe I could have gotten a job at Meta (and hey, maybe I'm wrong!) but I've never been able to stomach the idea of working on their products. If I can choose to avoid working on morally compromising things, why can't they? And look, I get it. If they didn't make it some other engineer wou…

2017-2019… it sounds like maybe he did quit.

Re: Mark Zuckerberg's biggest legal nightmare yet could cost Meta $1.4T

#105

Post by RetroTechie »

kridsdale1 wrote: post #54
imglorp wrote: post #27

Meta is a symptom; the whole business is rotten. We've all heard the vocabulary: engagement maximization, a/b testing, emotional targeting, ad auctions, user surveillance, sentiment analysis. Children are not emotionally or intellectually prepared to repel this hostile takeover of their minds. Civilization needs to rein in all these terrible things corporations do to humans.

I worked in the team at Facebook (2017-2019) relevant to this stuff. I saw (did not write) some of the documents cited. The rank and file engineers and designers and PMs doing the work were all morally correct people, working very hard all the time to steer the ship away from harm to normal people and toward establishing healthy relationships and media diet. We were consistently undermined and overruled by the Direct…

> Those leaders own full responsibility for this.

Sorry, no free pass.

No doubt there's lots of decent people working at FB. But through their work they do support a company with questionable ethics. Same goes for FB users.

Not judging any of FB's employees (or users) here! But unless you're starving or someone's whipping you, you have a choice to go elsewhere.

Re: Mark Zuckerberg's biggest legal nightmare yet could cost Meta $1.4T

#106

Post by NickC25 »

999900000999 wrote: post #97
sebastiennight wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"I actually like the camel's design on the cigarette pack" is a surprising take in this thread, but I guess no product can get to billions of users without having many really happy users.

How do you find your niche VSTs ? They don’t exactly advertise them on the evening news. I’m too lazy to make it, but now I want a short form video platform that’s 100% ads. Nothing else. Call it HonestSales.

I find my niche VSTs by being active in music production circles, as well as actively making (shitty) music.

I browse KVR, Gearslutz, Synthtopia, etc.. and if something catches my interest, i investigate.

When I make (awful noise) music, if I have a need for a type of effect or instrument, I will look one up, and try it out if it suits what I'm trying to do.

I don't rely on instagram.

Re: Mark Zuckerberg's biggest legal nightmare yet could cost Meta $1.4T

#107

Post by xorcist »

kridsdale1 wrote: post #54
imglorp wrote: post #27

Meta is a symptom; the whole business is rotten. We've all heard the vocabulary: engagement maximization, a/b testing, emotional targeting, ad auctions, user surveillance, sentiment analysis. Children are not emotionally or intellectually prepared to repel this hostile takeover of their minds. Civilization needs to rein in all these terrible things corporations do to humans.

I worked in the team at Facebook (2017-2019) relevant to this stuff. I saw (did not write) some of the documents cited. The rank and file engineers and designers and PMs doing the work were all morally correct people, working very hard all the time to steer the ship away from harm to normal people and toward establishing healthy relationships and media diet. We were consistently undermined and overruled by the Direct…

> engineers and designers and PMs doing the work were all morally correct people,

No. I'm sorry. You are not allowed to say this. Our society is post-truth enough as it is.

This is a company founded on a singular idea: Lock up as much as the free web as possible behind their login and own as much of the information as possible. Every type of web service on the open web, from forums to classifieds to event booking to blogs and social media, and of course games early on, has been reimplemented on their platform.

Every single person working on maximizing "engagement" or whatever you call it these days knows exactly what they are doing.

Sure, do your thing. Take over what parts of the web you can. Take on the metaverse. We live in a market economy and you are free to do this. But not for a second are you allowed to talk about morals or doing good "from the inside". This is not the responsibility of senior executives alone. That is simply too much.

This is a company where everyone knew an actual genocide was coordinated using their platform, and they did absolutely nothing to stop it, despite the efforts from Amnesty and outside journalists to raise attention to it. There must be a limit to how much spin you can put on it.

Re: Mark Zuckerberg's biggest legal nightmare yet could cost Meta $1.4T

#108

Post by lazide »

palmotea wrote: post #101
afavour wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The rank and file engineers and designers and PMs doing the work were all morally correct people Then why didn't they quit? I believe I could have gotten a job at Meta (and hey, maybe I'm wrong!) but I've never been able to stomach the idea of working on their products. If I can choose to avoid working on morally compromising things, why can't they? And look, I get it. If they didn't make it some other engineer wou…

>> The rank and file engineers and designers and PMs doing the work were all morally correct people > Then why didn't they quit? I can't speak for those people, but decisions like quitting your job aren't one-dimensional. Quitting a job can create severe hardships for a family, stress relationships to the breaking point, etc. The Bay Area is very expensive, so I'd imagine that's true even for workers making otherwise…

So you’re saying hard decisions… are hard for reasons? No shit Sherlock.

They made them a specific way, and will be stained with the consequences, because they were cowards who took the easy way out.

Re: Mark Zuckerberg's biggest legal nightmare yet could cost Meta $1.4T

#110

Post by lazide »

baggachipz wrote: post #71
dijit wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"You are not immune to propaganda" is a phrase that doesn't hit hard enough. It applies to you dear reader, yes you , not u/baggachipz.. YOU. I am also not immune, I believe myself to be, constantly. My worldview is truth and I am "open to other ideas"- yet I have very obviously anchored myself to things the first time I hear of them, despite actively making steps to try to see all angles and explain away facts with…

Sure, but lots of people are way more susceptible. Self-reflection is important here. The ability to question one's state and beliefs is the only tool to combat propaganda. Most people don't seem to do that; they parrot party lines and stay glued to their "news" networks.

Because for the most part, it works, and it’s way easier.

Until someone takes the car off a cliff, of course, but that almost never happens.

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