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Why skilled workers come to Germany and then leave again

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Re: Why skilled workers come to Germany and then leave again

#51

Post by thi2 »

lukeweston1234 wrote: post #37

As someone who moved from the U.S to Germany and has been here for ~15 months, I figured I would drop a few comments while I'm running a NixOS rebuild. Let me start with the wonderful things: Public transportation is nice, at least compared to the U.S. I like the shared sense of responsibility that Germans have with things like recycling. The directness is quite nice, in the U.S I often had to question if someone was…

Germans tend to differentiate between getting takeout (something like kebab/pizza/asia box to go or delivered home) or eating out (going to a restaurant and eating there).

But I'd argue for most people getting into the car to get takeout is not very common.

Re: Why skilled workers come to Germany and then leave again

#52

Post by parheric »

whateverboat wrote: post #21
parheric wrote: post #20

I've been here for a decade, and sadly I feel the issue is upward mobility for skilled workers. Unless you're working for an intl company, with ex-pats in positions of leadership, your chances of "getting ahead" are going to be limited, especially when you're competing against natives. The reason is sadly, the culture is very reserved and cautious, so as an "outsider" it's going to take A LONG time before you can be…

I think this is the biggest factor. Ambitious people who want to become rich do not have any opportunities in Germany. It is good for people who are content with a middling but comfortable life. That's why most ambitious people leave.

Bang on... it's initially about opportunity. But when that runs out, people move on.

And with the offer of DE citizenship where you're not giving up your birth citizenship, most people will take it, and move somewhere else in EU with a shiney new DE passport.

Re: Why skilled workers come to Germany and then leave again

#53

Post by rawbot »

4gotunameagain wrote: post #41
whateverboat wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this is the biggest factor. Ambitious people who want to become rich do not have any opportunities in Germany. It is good for people who are content with a middling but comfortable life. That's why most ambitious people leave.

This is not a bad thing. Wealth inequality is destructive for societies.

I agree with the feeling, but the market doesn't. Inflation in the last 8 years has been slowly strangling families. And that's without mentioning the fact that owning an apartment or home is basically impossible without inheritance or being upper-class.

So for most middle-class families, the work grind will continue for the rest of their life, until retirement (if it even exists by then), without anything to show for it (owning the place you live in). How are people even going to be able to pay for their rent between retirement (67 years old) and assisted living (+75 years old)?

Re: Why skilled workers come to Germany and then leave again

#54

Post by prolly97 »

Alien1Being wrote: post #2

German discrimination and racism towards migrant workers and visible minorities is world class. And with Alternative für Deutschland / AfD rising rapidly, this is only going to get much, much worse. https://www.infomigrants.net/en/post/70478/study-finds-racis... https://www.business-humanrights.org/en/latest-news/germany-...

I mean... yes discrimination doesn't feel nice... but it's not as if people who come to Germany where forced to do so by the germans. I'm not from Germany, but the vibes in some of the high-muslim density parts of Germany I've been to have likewise felt unwelcome, unsafe and hostile (towards me as a scandinavian).

So it feel a bit more complicated than "germans are racist, BAD". Anecdotally I've heard that it's hard for any other nationality to do business in germany, simply because they prefer to do business with other germans. It's their country, we just need to accept those cultural differences, and their right to do as they please in their own country.

There's plenty of countries whose laws or attitudes I don't agree with, and that I just don't visit or have any ambition of staying in. China, Burkina Faso, Somalia and Chad are a few examples.

Re: Why skilled workers come to Germany and then leave again

#55

Post by rawbot »

ramon156 wrote: post #36
superze wrote: post #9

Why would anyone wanna go to a country that pays them low abuses them and they end up alone with no friends because this is Germany.

> and they end up alone with no friends This sounds like a personal issue. Is Germany at fault here?

It is a personal issue for sure. But people from "warmer" cultures often struggle with the "colder" culture, at least in Northern Germany. And that sometimes leads to people from other countries seeking or making friend group with other migrants.

Re: Why skilled workers come to Germany and then leave again

#56

Post by maccard »

sph wrote: post #39
maccard wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s funny you give out about supermarket opening hours when being English - Sunday trading laws are arcane in England too!

I remember visiting London and being surprised that pubs would close at 11pm and night life, outside of clubs, would pretty much die. In the largest city in Europe! Mad stuff. When I moved back to Italy I had forgotten that shops close between 13 and 15:30. Every country has their own little quirks

Yep! I used to live in Ireland and pubs being closed on Good Friday was like the end of the world.

Re: Why skilled workers come to Germany and then leave again

#57

Post by lukeweston1234 »

4gotunameagain wrote: post #44
lukeweston1234 wrote: post #37

As someone who moved from the U.S to Germany and has been here for ~15 months, I figured I would drop a few comments while I'm running a NixOS rebuild. Let me start with the wonderful things: Public transportation is nice, at least compared to the U.S. I like the shared sense of responsibility that Germans have with things like recycling. The directness is quite nice, in the U.S I often had to question if someone was…

> In Germany, there really are not so many places for quick food to grab, in general the food is actually quite poor, I don't find myself eating out at all. That is wildly false. First of all the availability of eating out options is directly influenced by where you are (e.g. in Berlin there is incredible variety of cuisines, price ranges and healthiness), and secondly almost every food or grocery you buy in Germany…

I mean there are exceptions in cities with a higher immigrant presence like Berlin, but for a lot of Germany you're simply looking at low quality kebab, pizza, or burgers.

There also seems to be this general perception of food in the U.S being so bad, this is true for areas that are strongly lacking access, i.e inner cities, rural areas (much of the country to be fair!), but if you're in an agricultural hub in the U.S you can have absolutely incredible access to farmers markets and fresh produce. A lot of regional grocery stores have fresh sourdough and other breads similar in quality to the stuff you can find at Lidl/Aldi/Edeka.

Re: Why skilled workers come to Germany and then leave again

#58

Post by Tade0 »

As an outsider, but hailing from Germany's eastern neighbor and one of the largest sources of immigrants:

Overall sentiment is that the juice ain't worth the squeeze any more.

Back when my country became a full member of Schengen(2008) the ratio of GDP per capita between Germany and us was around 3.3x - salaries were roughly proportionally higher, so just about any job was worth moving there and potentially going through the hoops required to establish a permanent residence.

Earlier, especially throughout the 90s that ratio didn't go below 5, so a sizeable number of people attempted to move to Germany by any means possible.

Currently it hovers at around 2.1x and most of the discrepancy in salaries is focused on the trades.

A specialist from Poland typically doesn't have access to higher tier salaries, so they don't really enjoy a different quality of life than at home, so they have no reason to move.

Re: Why skilled workers come to Germany and then leave again

#59

Post by lukeweston1234 »

thi2 wrote: post #51
lukeweston1234 wrote: post #37

As someone who moved from the U.S to Germany and has been here for ~15 months, I figured I would drop a few comments while I'm running a NixOS rebuild. Let me start with the wonderful things: Public transportation is nice, at least compared to the U.S. I like the shared sense of responsibility that Germans have with things like recycling. The directness is quite nice, in the U.S I often had to question if someone was…

Germans tend to differentiate between getting takeout (something like kebab/pizza/asia box to go or delivered home) or eating out (going to a restaurant and eating there). But I'd argue for most people getting into the car to get takeout is not very common.

Yeah and honestly, it shouldn't be. It was really strange going back to the U.S and having family members suggest we drive to get ice cream. It's incredibly wasteful.

That being said, I've noticed that these takeout meals tend to be pretty low quality and unhealthy and I miss this middle ground that I could lean on once or twice a week.

Re: Why skilled workers come to Germany and then leave again

#60

Post by 4gotunameagain »

lukeweston1234 wrote: post #57
4gotunameagain wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In Germany, there really are not so many places for quick food to grab, in general the food is actually quite poor, I don't find myself eating out at all. That is wildly false. First of all the availability of eating out options is directly influenced by where you are (e.g. in Berlin there is incredible variety of cuisines, price ranges and healthiness), and secondly almost every food or grocery you buy in Germany…

I mean there are exceptions in cities with a higher immigrant presence like Berlin, but for a lot of Germany you're simply looking at low quality kebab, pizza, or burgers. There also seems to be this general perception of food in the U.S being so bad, this is true for areas that are strongly lacking access, i.e inner cities, rural areas (much of the country to be fair!), but if you're in an agricultural hub in the U.…

You are definitely right that there are places in the US with great produce e.g. rural cali - much better than Germany's - but I still feel that on average there is higher quality food in Germany, less ultra processed food and a healthier food culture in general.

Of course I haven't scoured the states (not even Germany for that matter), so.. :)

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