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Why skilled workers come to Germany and then leave again

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Re: Why skilled workers come to Germany and then leave again

#31
I think there is also a chicken-egg problem in almost every country that doesn't use English as official language:

If you are not an engineer you must have an almost excellent level of local language --> an excellent level of a language is only possible if you are immersed daily over a long time and have the time to study --> to live there you need a job --> back to start

Different counties have different tolerances regarding how quick you pick up the local language. For Germany and France this tolerance is almost 0, for Netherlands it's much higher.

Re: Why skilled workers come to Germany and then leave again

#32
post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

Physiognomic appearance does not equate with genetically discrete populations, so while we can obviously visually identify that people have broadly asian, african, european, polynesian dissent etc; this doesn't equate with other factors stereotypically associated with those 'races'. Race is a folk taxonomy. Ethnicity and genetics are complex - like most things when you make more than a cursory investigation. So while…

Aren't haplotype groups essentially "race"? Certainly there is not white/black race, but a southern costal Indian would self differentiate from a central one, you can spot the difference visually,culturally and lingustcally and there is also well understood predispositions of different groups to specific ailments (see diabetes). Not my area of expertise so might be way off

Re: Why skilled workers come to Germany and then leave again

#33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think what its trying to say is race as a defined biological categorisation doesn't really exist, at least not to the extent its been described in past. The biological variance between humans is more of spectrum than categories. race as a cultural / social concept does exist though, and that biology certainly correlates to an extent due to geography and how human society has traditionally functioned. I.e, the corni…

> I think what its trying to say is race as a defined biological categorisation Proof? What do you think the people were asked in the survey? Normal people use race in the normal way. I think white people exist. I think black people exist. Everyone knows this - I don't need any academic to prove me wrong. And I don't think it makes me racist when some one asks me "are there different human races" and I answer "yes".

skin color does not equal race. The US is really weird to me in that regard.

Re: Why skilled workers come to Germany and then leave again

#34
post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

Physiognomic appearance does not equate with genetically discrete populations, so while we can obviously visually identify that people have broadly asian, african, european, polynesian dissent etc; this doesn't equate with other factors stereotypically associated with those 'races'. Race is a folk taxonomy. Ethnicity and genetics are complex - like most things when you make more than a cursory investigation. So while…

> this doesn't equate with other factors stereotypically associated

who is suggesting this? what do you think the people in the survey are asked? They were asked if races exist and they definitely do. White people exist and Black people exist. Normal people won't read your research papers lmao. Colloquially, races do exist and normal people should think that races do exist.

Re: Why skilled workers come to Germany and then leave again

#35
post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How many races are there? How do you draw boundaries between people who exist on a spectrum of genetic variability? What race are Kazakhs?

Hard boundaries are not required for categories to exist. It is really surprising that smart educated adults don't see this. Will you suggest I'm sexist because I think male and female gender exists?

Using "Race" like this is really bad in Germany and Sweden. As is pointed out in this thread [1] how we use words differs. TIL race has a different meaning in English and Swedish. I use it in both but I've never thought about the difference in how I use it in different languages.

Categories are not fixed between cultures, even colours and numbers are hard to get right. So when you hear a word you can not be clear it is used in your broad meaning, or the narrow meaning.

This was actually my favourite way of nerd sniping back when I was young.

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48816222

Re: Why skilled workers come to Germany and then leave again

#36
post #9

Why would anyone wanna go to a country that pays them low abuses them and they end up alone with no friends because this is Germany.

> and they end up alone with no friends

This sounds like a personal issue. Is Germany at fault here?

Re: Why skilled workers come to Germany and then leave again

#37
As someone who moved from the U.S to Germany and has been here for ~15 months, I figured I would drop a few comments while I'm running a NixOS rebuild.

Let me start with the wonderful things: Public transportation is nice, at least compared to the U.S. I like the shared sense of responsibility that Germans have with things like recycling. The directness is quite nice, in the U.S I often had to question if someone was being genuine or not, and that is not really a problem here. If you're into various hobbies, clubs, etc., Germany has really incredible communities and clubs for so many things, and they're very organized about this, it's quite nice. The nature is great, and I've really enjoyed exploring different areas.

As for the negatives, it's clear in Germany that you're looking at buying into their system, for life so to speak. You don't find yourself getting equity, trading stocks, buying a home, etc. You generally are expected to work, keep your head down, and hopefully acquire an apartment where the rent won't increase while you support the social system (for the record, I am more than okay with paying my share, but I was shocked at the difference in take home pay, and particularly how it feels compared to the U.S). Buying a home is likely not going to be in the cards for most, and there is so much paperwork, painful and expensive driving courses, and strange decisions as well with starting your own business. I have for instance a few projects where I could be taking revenue, but I specifically am not as it would make my visa situation more complicated, and am instead waiting for a year or two.

Germany is really not a convenience culture, I consistently find myself exhausted. This might sound stupid, but in the U.S, I can simply hop in a car and grab a reasonably healthy Chipotle bowl or similar, get enough protein and vegetables, etc. In Germany, there really are not so many places for quick food to grab, in general the food is actually quite poor, I don't find myself eating out at all.

Additionally, the language is brutal, it's hard to explain just how exhausting it is to learn while you're working full time. I have probably spent ~600 hours practicing yet I am still only about an A2 speaking level, with my understanding generally being a bit higher.

All in all, I'm happy I made the switch, it's been incredibly rewarding, but it truly is exhausting. I can see how this would add up, and I often think about how easy my life might be in the United States, and I miss this easy, casual life that's been replaced for something that really expects and demands so much from me, every single day and interaction.

Re: Why skilled workers come to Germany and then leave again

#38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think what its trying to say is race as a defined biological categorisation doesn't really exist, at least not to the extent its been described in past. The biological variance between humans is more of spectrum than categories. race as a cultural / social concept does exist though, and that biology certainly correlates to an extent due to geography and how human society has traditionally functioned. I.e, the corni…

> I think what its trying to say is race as a defined biological categorisation Proof? What do you think the people were asked in the survey? Normal people use race in the normal way. I think white people exist. I think black people exist. Everyone knows this - I don't need any academic to prove me wrong. And I don't think it makes me racist when some one asks me "are there different human races" and I answer "yes".

Sorry, but most Europeans don't use the term anymore since the Nazis tried to impose a catastrophic societal order based on their race ideology.

White people were only white if they could show bloodlines reaching back generations. One jewish great-grandfather would make you intelligible for the Arian race. They would laugh at your notion of white vs black.

Re: Why skilled workers come to Germany and then leave again

#39
post #27

I lived there for around 6 months like 15 years ago so perhaps it's changed a lot since then. But even as an Englishman, it was very different to home. I remember the supermarket was shut all Sunday and was only open until 12 on the Saturday, and it shut early in the week too (at like 5pm or 6pm or something?) so by the time I'd got the train back home from work it was already closed. I had to get up early every Satu…

It’s funny you give out about supermarket opening hours when being English - Sunday trading laws are arcane in England too!

I remember visiting London and being surprised that pubs would close at 11pm and night life, outside of clubs, would pretty much die. In the largest city in Europe! Mad stuff.

When I moved back to Italy I had forgotten that shops close between 13 and 15:30. Every country has their own little quirks

Re: Why skilled workers come to Germany and then leave again

#40
post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

Race != Race. Race as a social construct exists but biologically speaking there is no such thing. In the US the term "race" always refers to the social construct. The german word "Rasse" did not undergo that same change in meaning. Even the most extreme right wing in Germany, the most openly racist people you can find would not dare to use that word in this manner in public. This is far more offensive than using the…

TBH I think the word is often used without much consideration. So where people should say ethnicity or ancestry e.g., they say race instead, because it is just simpler, not because they carry much meaning with it. This is true in German and English..

Also I think given the context you know how people mean these words. But all I see is wild jumping on some words without much context all the time.

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