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NSA and IETF: Fairness

blog.cr.yp.to

91–100 of 198 posts

Re: NSA and IETF: Fairness

#91
post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From the way DJB talks about IETF processes, it's quite clear to me though that he has little trust/belief in the IETF consensus process. I thought he said as much somewhere but can't find that right now. (It's particularly obvious in https://blog.cr.yp.to/20260405-votes.html ) Which is why I'm noting the alienation of "IETF believers", which I should maybe clarify I count myself as. The IETF is a lot of people doing…

He makes the legal argument in more detail in https://blog.cr.yp.to/20251004-weakened.html#standards The gist of it is that standards organizations like the IETF depend on a specific carve-out in US antitrust law (in order for it to be legal for American companies like Cisco and Google to participate in them), and that carve-out includes a specific definition of what "standards organizations" and "consensus" are. So…

I can't help but note two things:

* the IETF's approach predates 15 U.S.C. §4302 by more than a decade

* every single case example cited is US-American scoped¹ SDOs: American Society of Mechanical Engineers, National Fire Protection Association, American National Standards Institute²

¹ NB scope ≠ legal domicile. The IETF's legal status is… complicated… but does have US dependencies. Its scope is world-wide though. Not so for any of the mentioned entities, even if…

² …ANSI is a borderline case since it is the constituent ISO member. But still, it's the US entity.

I'm not trying to make a legal argument here, but… I'll say he shouldn't be trying to do that either. Most mathematicians and CS majors make very poor lawyers in any case, and often enough without any awareness of it.

Re: NSA and IETF: Fairness

#92
post #84
post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Huh, seen through that light, it's much clearer why we should all have ECC in our cryptosystems, because nothing has ever gone wrong with an ECC implementation.

This reads to me as an argument of "If you thought ECDSA was bad, wait until you see MLKEM?" ECDSA history is repeating itself again when you consider how poorly the proposed MLKEM RFC deals with side channel resistance: From draft-ietf-tls-mlkem-8:[1] "Implementers are encouraged to use implementations resistant to side-channel attacks, especially those that can be applied by remote attackers." From NIST SP 800-227:…

> A single sentence of encouragement is all that is on offer from this MLKEM RFC.

The draft only specifies the MLKEM binding into TLS; it'd be out of scope for it to go into detail on implementation considerations for MLKEM. Those would belong in or adjacent to FIPS 203 (the actual MLKEM specification).

> It doesn't even have the lightweight "Security Considerations" section which RFC8032 for EdDSA provided.[3]

It's actually RFC8032 that this criticism would apply to, since it is actually specifying EdDSA, not just referencing it externally.

Re: NSA and IETF: Fairness

#93
post #89
post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But that’s not what the IETF is. They don’t police, they encourage collaboration and standardization between implementers.

The standardization process should weed out 'footguns' that are prone to accidentally (or maliciously) lowering the security bar.

To point out some positive examples of what RFCs should include:

RFC 5288 s3 (AES-GCM): "Each value of the nonce_explicit MUST be distinct for each distinct invocation of the GCM encrypt function for any fixed key. Failure to meet this uniqueness requirement can significantly degrade security."[1]

RFC 7748 s5 (X25519): "The cswap function SHOULD be implemented in constant time (i.e., independent of the swap argument)."[2]

By contrast, this proposed RFC for MLKEM provides a single encouragement:

"[NIST-SP-800-227] includes guidelines and requirements for implementations on using KEMs securely. Implementers are encouraged to use implementations resistant to side-channel attacks, especially those that can be applied by remote attackers."[3]

It's not even a SHOULD, it's just an encouragement in a non-normative section of the RFC.

When you go to the referred NIST SP 800-227 it then tells you it's all too hard anyway and good luck and have fun figuring it out yourself:

"Cryptographic modules for KEMs should be designed with appropriate countermeasures against side-channel attacks. This includes protecting against timing attacks with constant-time implementations and protecting memory from leakage. Universal guidelines are unlikely to be helpful as exposure to side-channel attacks varies significantly with the desired application, and countermeasures are often costly."[4]

The normative standard FIPS 203[5] which the draft MLKEM RFC relies upon NEVER mentions "side channel", "constant", "timing" or provides any other assistance to implementers on how to securely multiply and/or divide numbers on computers or how to deal with conditional branching. Fair enough it includes a lower case "should" for considering side-channel resistance, but this throwaway comment is inadequate for standardisation.

The main reason it is inadequate is, imagine you're on your Hardened Gentoo or some other uber-geek laptop with the most advanced and thoroughly tested side channel resistant MLKEM client imaginable. You want to access your bank's website that offers MLKEM-only TLS. You don't have any assurance the bank's implementation of MLKEM has implemented any side channel resistance because the RFC they claim to have implemented never required it. If you then extrapolate from historical woes of implementing side channel resistant crypto (ECDSA scalar multiplication for example), it's probably correct to assume someone has, or reasonably could at some point in the future, extract private keys from the bank's side, and thus your expectations of having a secure connection are unmet. This is a standardisation problem because two implementations cannot agree on whether the protocol offers any resistance to side channel leakage to remote adversaries, therefore, what is the security guarantee the two implementations can actually agree upon?

The key missing section of this RFC is perhaps a restriction on its application similar to:

"This standard does not require implementations to consider side-channel attacks. This standard SHOULD NOT be used for protecting data and communications where an adversary may have one or more of: a) physical access to equipment performing cryptographic operations and time and resources necessary to observe physical properties of the equipment (power and signal characteristics, electromagnetic radiation, thermal dissipation), b) ability to execute code on equipment performing cryptographic operations, c) remote access to high-resolution monitoring data of physical properties of equipment performing cryptographic operations, d) ability to observe and/or establish a session to a party using this cryptographic protocol."

Thus it'd only be applicable to low risk environments such as two servers in a government building in separate rooms where an adversary is prevented from conducting a side channel attack by a plethora of other security controls.

[1] https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc5288#section-3

[2] https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc7748#section-5

[3] https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-tls-mlkem/

[4] https://nvlpubs.nist.gov/nistpubs/SpecialPublications/NIST.S...

[5] https://nvlpubs.nist.gov/nistpubs/FIPS/NIST.FIPS.203.pdf

Re: NSA and IETF: Fairness

#94
post #92
post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This reads to me as an argument of "If you thought ECDSA was bad, wait until you see MLKEM?" ECDSA history is repeating itself again when you consider how poorly the proposed MLKEM RFC deals with side channel resistance: From draft-ietf-tls-mlkem-8:[1] "Implementers are encouraged to use implementations resistant to side-channel attacks, especially those that can be applied by remote attackers." From NIST SP 800-227:…

> A single sentence of encouragement is all that is on offer from this MLKEM RFC. The draft only specifies the MLKEM binding into TLS; it'd be out of scope for it to go into detail on implementation considerations for MLKEM. Those would belong in or adjacent to FIPS 203 (the actual MLKEM specification). > It doesn't even have the lightweight "Security Considerations" section which RFC8032 for EdDSA provided.[3] It's…

The draft considers FIPS 203 to be normative. Therefore FIPS 203 forms part of this draft. You can't implement this draft without first implementing FIPS 203.

FIPS 203 doesn't care about side channel resistance, per my other comment at [1]. And this draft doesn't do anything to tighten the constraints on how FIPS 203 should be implemented to provide side channel resistance.

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48811887

Re: NSA and IETF: Fairness

#95
post #71
post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He's a cryptographer. You're describing cryptographers. You get that other cryptographers designed Kyber/MLKEM, and still more implemented it, right? There are cryptographers besides Daniel J. Bernstein.

I, for one, wouldn't care if Kanye West or his aunt or her neigbours dog came up with a good encryption algo. If it's good, it's good no matter who wrote it. Appeals to authority or the lack thereof draws attention away from the technical debate.

Unfortunately, that's not how modern crypto works. Many mathematical problems on which algorithm rests their security are not proven to be unsolvable, but instead they're believed to be hard to solve. So here are the questions, who believes what is hard, and hard for whom.

Somehow I wouldn't trust my data on mathematical problems, for which the recommendation is that they would challenge Kayne West.

Re: NSA and IETF: Fairness

#96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> https://www.iana.org/assignments/tls-parameters/tls-paramete... Further the draft that this is all about does not make a recommendation for its use. The currently IETF-recommended TLS algorithms are: X25519MLKEM768, x448, x25519, secp384r1, secp256r1. As noted by someone on the IETF list [1] there are already ML-KEM-only implementations in various libraries, so if we want interoperability then it's best to have a s…

> there are already ML-KEM-only implementations in various libraries, so if we want interoperability then it's best to have a standard document “People are already doing it, so we might as well rubber-stamp it even if it’s not great” introduces problems of its own: people will perceive that rubber-stamping as validating it, and now they’ll use it even more, where perhaps if you held back, they wouldn’t. (There are co…

> “People are already doing it, so we might as well rubber-stamp it even if it’s not great” introduces problems of its own: people will perceive that rubber-stamping as validating it, and now they’ll use it even more, where perhaps if you held back, they wouldn’t.

The GOST cipher, which is Russia's AES equivalent, is also in an RFC:

* https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc9189

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GOST_(block_cipher)

Is the IETF validating its use?

The GOST document is categorized in the same way as the one currently being debated/discussed: Informational. It also has "N" under the "Recommended" column (like ML-KEM-only will have):

* https://www.iana.org/assignments/tls-parameters/tls-paramete...

Re: NSA and IETF: Fairness

#97
post #8

The two most important things to understand about this kerfuffle: (1) MLKEM wasn't designed by NSA, but rather by a team of highly-regarded European academic cryptographers, including Bernstein's former collaborator Peter Schwabe; their submission, Kyber, was selected in an open competition in which Bernstein himself submitted a closely-related algorithm (and then contested the result, suing NIST for documents to cla…

[flagged]

Re: NSA and IETF: Fairness

#98
post #97
post #8

The two most important things to understand about this kerfuffle: (1) MLKEM wasn't designed by NSA, but rather by a team of highly-regarded European academic cryptographers, including Bernstein's former collaborator Peter Schwabe; their submission, Kyber, was selected in an open competition in which Bernstein himself submitted a closely-related algorithm (and then contested the result, suing NIST for documents to cla…

[flagged]

You’re being rude, which wouldn’t be good even if you weren’t wrong on all three counts. This is not contriving positively.

(Consider the difference between extensive peer-review and “appeal to authority”, not to mention the IETF’s dual role encouraging research along with mainstream deployments)

Re: NSA and IETF: Fairness

#99
post #98
post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

You’re being rude, which wouldn’t be good even if you weren’t wrong on all three counts. This is not contriving positively. (Consider the difference between extensive peer-review and “appeal to authority”, not to mention the IETF’s dual role encouraging research along with mainstream deployments)

I have edited my post to remove the rude acronym. Thank you for your feedback.

I do not think the response addresses the claims made, and uses logical fallacies in place of a well reasoned response.

> a team of highly-regarded European academic cryptographers

This is absolutely an appeal to authority.

Re: NSA and IETF: Fairness

#100

DJB has orchestrated a vote rigging campaign against this WGLC, encouraging users to join the list and vote/express their opinion and providing the exact subject header to use. Have any other sides been saying, essentially, just join the group and say you’re for/against? He’s been moderated during the last call because of his email disclaimer/footnote, and apparently refuses to respond on list during this time. Seems…

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