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Old People

bhorowitz.com

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Re: Old People

#11

Post by bbotond »

sharkweek wrote: post #4

Worked at a startup with about 20 or so people. The cofounders decided to bring on a "COO" to, in essence, whip the company into shape for scaling. This person was considerably older than a lot of the staff (but I'm not sure age was relevant). The person was a terrible cultural fit and was the reason three of our best employees left, dynamically changing the structure of the co. I think this person made some decent o…

Why was he a terrible cultural fit? Also, do you think it was because he was older or for some other reason? (honest questions, no sarcasm intended)

Re: Old People

#12

Post by codeonfire »

No one is afraid of older people. they are afraid of not having the upper hand. This business speak about culture is lame. Say what you mean. Don't say culture when you mean power. Yes, the problem is that more experienced, wiser, and older people are scary and will take control of your company if you hire them and will ignore all your power games. They are not going to respect your "culture" (power). Scary stuff. In reality, the powerful don't work for the weak so you don't have to worry about it.

Re: Old People

#13

Post by rickmb »

sharkweek wrote: post #4

Worked at a startup with about 20 or so people. The cofounders decided to bring on a "COO" to, in essence, whip the company into shape for scaling. This person was considerably older than a lot of the staff (but I'm not sure age was relevant). The person was a terrible cultural fit and was the reason three of our best employees left, dynamically changing the structure of the co. I think this person made some decent o…

Said person may have only been the catalyst. The reality is that company culture changes as it scales up, whether you bring in outsiders or not.

It's easy to blame a specific person, but in fact it is perfectly normal for some of "the best" people to leave because they no longer feel comfortable in the changing company.

Re: Old People

#14

Post by adrianhoward »

The mistake I've seen a few companies make is hiring in the wrong kind of experience (and I'm gonna use that word instead of "old" since I don't think the "old" bit is actually the issue).

For example - say you want to "build a worldwide sales channel". Go find somebody who's running a worldwide sales channel and poach 'em... right?

Nope. Coz running a successful worldwide sales channel is a very different process from building a worldwide sales channel. There are folk who are very good at the former who are lousy at the latter.

The mistake I've seen multiple times is folk going out to hire the people who work at the companies they want to be like, rather than going out and hiring the folk who were there while those companies were growing. That growing bit is darn hard. Find folk who've done it before.

Re: Old People

#15

Post by dmk23 »

I think it is important to draw clear distinction between "hiring senior people" and "turning over control".

If you hire a VP Sales and they do not work out you can rollback the change with pretty limited amount of pain and start over. If you decide to hire CEO or COO you could be irreversibly transforming your entire organization and a subsequent "pivot" may kill you. You might hit a jackpot with an Eric Schmidt or a Jim Barksdale or you could be stuck with a turkey that ruins your company (which is a lot more likely outcome).

There is nothing wrong with hiring senior talent (for whatever role) as long as everyone is clear about the chain of command, responsibilities and expectations. Whether you want to make the top decisions or let someone else do that be sure you know what you are getting into.

Re: Old People

#16

Post by nicholassmith »

I've heard before startups saying "yeah, but once you're a bit older you can't commit to the 14 hour days, you have family and stuff". 14 hour days are bad and wrong anyway, no one should do them, and no one should expect them. Grumpy grownups have probably done them before, but have enough knowledge of the languages that the 14 hours can be squeezed into 9.

Anyway, startups should hire the right person for the right role. Is that the 21 year old kid who can sling code like a ninjarockstarboss and cut her teeth when she was 12? Maybe! Or is it the 40 year old dude who's seen the rise and fall of titans and has 10 years experience in the domain? That depends entirely on what your business needs when you hire someone, and what the business is going to need long term.

Re: Old People

#17

Post by jimfuller »

bjpcjp wrote: post #8

Old guy here. Musing about the reaction if I reblogged this post with "younguns". Don't get me wrong, the points are valid. But I'd bet an equivalent post about what could happen to a startup when a young new hire comes in would get uber-flamed. Just sayin'.

Agree with your sentiments, I won't be so nice though ... this article is stunning in its naivety and ignorance.

Perhaps the author realizes that for every successful startup there are thousands of failures; young people are being convinced (usually by clever older people with money) to use up that most precious commodity e.g. time.

An analogy I see is in the stock market; where hiring young (malleable) young guns to work 24/7 ... most of these people don't get wealthy, most of them burn out or used as responsibility fodder. Most of them don't enjoy their youth and end up regretting it.

as for the age bias in the article ..., lets hope a few decades from now that his article will be preserved for pleasurable reading later on in life as much wincing will ensue.

Re: Old People

#18

Post by davedx »

nicholassmith wrote: post #16

I've heard before startups saying "yeah, but once you're a bit older you can't commit to the 14 hour days, you have family and stuff". 14 hour days are bad and wrong anyway, no one should do them, and no one should expect them. Grumpy grownups have probably done them before, but have enough knowledge of the languages that the 14 hours can be squeezed into 9. Anyway, startups should hire the right person for the right…

> have enough knowledge of the languages that the 14 hours can be squeezed into 9.

Or enough knowledge of the English language to be able to tell the people trying to get us to work those hours what to do. ;)

Re: Old People

#19

Post by yummyfajitas »

nicholassmith wrote: post #16

I've heard before startups saying "yeah, but once you're a bit older you can't commit to the 14 hour days, you have family and stuff". 14 hour days are bad and wrong anyway, no one should do them, and no one should expect them. Grumpy grownups have probably done them before, but have enough knowledge of the languages that the 14 hours can be squeezed into 9. Anyway, startups should hire the right person for the right…

14 hour days are bad and wrong anyway, no one should do them, and no one should expect them.

Can you explain this claim? For what value of N are N hour days not "bad and wrong"?

Re: Old People

#20

Post by nicholassmith »

yummyfajitas wrote: post #19
nicholassmith wrote: post #16

I've heard before startups saying "yeah, but once you're a bit older you can't commit to the 14 hour days, you have family and stuff". 14 hour days are bad and wrong anyway, no one should do them, and no one should expect them. Grumpy grownups have probably done them before, but have enough knowledge of the languages that the 14 hours can be squeezed into 9. Anyway, startups should hire the right person for the right…

14 hour days are bad and wrong anyway, no one should do them, and no one should expect them. Can you explain this claim? For what value of N are N hour days not "bad and wrong"?

If you're expected to work 14 hour days as anything other than a one off then it's not sustainable. Don't get me wrong, some developers are very capable of being able to grind 14 hour days out over and over, but for the average person your quality level is going to dip off rapidly, you end up overly stressed and it ruins your health. I say this as someone who has gone his time in the pits doing 14 hour days, and whilst I throw the occasional one in when needed it's a rare outlier.
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