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EU Council forces Chat Control via fast-track

heise.de

251–260 of 278 posts

Re: EU Council forces Chat Control via fast-track

#251
post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ao is the prime minister in any country that adopts parliamentarism. I am still to see as many people getting riled up about how those countries are not democratic.

Straw man... voters in parliamentary democracies generally are fully aware of whom the prime minister is going to be if the party wins. Nobody really knows or cares who is going to be appointed to the commission since domestic issues always completely over shadow it.

The EU Council is composed of heads of government of each member state.

Are you really trying to imply that voters don't know who the fuck their heads of government are?

I mean, this is a rhetorical question. I don't really expect people who keep repeating misinformation about EU to be arguing in good faith.

Re: EU Council forces Chat Control via fast-track

#252

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The criticism is about accountability, not whether the system is democratic. The UK pm and the POTUS are both ultimately accountable through elections. In the UK, a general election can change the government. In the US, people vote specifically for presidential electors, even if it’s through the Electoral College. The EU commission is different. People don’t vote for commissioners or the president, and they can’t vot…

100%. This is why many of us have a problem with the EU. And world governments in general — the more power they have and the further away from the elections that keep them accountable, the more tyrannical they become.

Again, it is the member states governments pushing for the thing you are calling "tyrannical". It is the EU parliament constantly blocking it.

If anything, the EU is curtailing the undemocratic tendencies of member states.

Re: EU Council forces Chat Control via fast-track

#253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I live in a country where the prime minister is picked by the parliament. I don't directly vote for him. By your own ridiculous standards, I don't live in a democracy. I fact, any paliamentarism would not be democratic based on that.

Not the parent, but chill with the aggressive tone. When you vote in your elections, you almost certainly know who's going to lead the country. Not so with the EU: look up Spitzenkandidat method and the deviations from it, including von der Leyen in 2019 being parachuted into her post not based on any vote.

No, I would rather people in this thread chilled with misinformation.

My tone is appropriate.

Re: EU Council forces Chat Control via fast-track

#254

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Something particularly ironic is that much of the EU's undemocratic nature comes from features designed specifically to prevent the EU from subsuming its member states. The best path to making Europe democratic again... would be a federal EU, with all the protections for individual member states stripped out, because member states are not a protected class . The Euroskeptics want to go about this backwards. They corr…

I can entertain that this idea could be a solution IF done well, but what would be the path to democratic decision-making in this integrated EU? I strongly believe in people organising against the government, I think this is what can lead to change, or at least maintain the fighting spirit going. The EU is handicapped by its very diversity on this. Imagine the situation where the EU is integrated, and the government…

>The EU is handicapped by its very diversity on this.

Thousands of years of cultural heritage can't be bulldozed over and turned into a faceless economic zone similar to the US, just because the business class elites see it as a disadvantage to advancing their WEF globalist agenda where every person on the planet is to be an identical blank slate in an excel sheet and there's no borders, no religion, no identity, and no intellectual, educational, cultural and behavioral differences and all everyone just compete to be cattle in a race to the bottom for their corporate and real estate empires. This will always get pushback, mostly via voting far right.

If you want to convince people to freely give up their culture and identity in the name of EU economic advancement, you need to give them an incentive, a big economic one, and the EU sucks at this, and ambitious people looking for money go to the US, Dubai, etc. Money in the EU is still gatekept based on where you live and what nationality you have. EU will never go anywhere if still keeps this caste system where western/northern europeans are the noble gentry and eastern/southern europe the cheap labor peasants without any skin the game as they just become mercenaries who will sell their talent to US, China, etc anyone how will pay them better than Europeans.

>it's ultimately a party for English-speaking, basically well-off, educated, currently left-leaning, young people, which is nothing that one can build a deep movement on

Out-of-touch theater kids from upper class families who never did any hard labor jobs and spent their lives in an eternal Erasmus travel and party program, aren't gonna be popular with anyone but their own bubble as nobody who's struggling to pay bills, deal with unemployment from layoffs or lack of safety in public spaces due to migration, will ever empathize with them. It's the same posh European nobility cohort the hugely unpopular and equally out of touch Ursula von der Leyen comes from, where she grew up living abroad, traveling, partying and studying surrounded by private security, and then lectures the working class on "difficult decisions". We would guillotine people like that for less.

Re: EU Council forces Chat Control via fast-track

#255
post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Council represents state governments, not nations. A nation consists of all the people in it, not just those who appointed themselves to speak on its behalf.

... appoint themselves? You are aware how governments are chosen in all member states? Are you calling into question the democratic processes of national governments? Either way, your issue is with national governments and not the EU, which curbs their excesses.

Far from it. This is a classic example that national governments use EU to launder unpopular policy at home. "We have to, it's a EU requirement". It's hard to think it's not by design, that indeed EU is made to "curb the excesses" of popular accountability. UK played that game for decades, and it went as it had to go.

Re: EU Council forces Chat Control via fast-track

#256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Law enforcement should stop them. In countries like Germany this is very likely illegal and amounts to preparation of terrorist act.

Wait until you see who's in charge of deciding who to prosecute! My first experience with German police was reporting a crime and then then discussing if they should arrest me for being involved with the crime, since I was there at the police station and therefore easier to arrest than the actual perpetrators.

In the UK, when I reported a crime, I had to pull out the book and read the verse what constitutes an assault for Police to record it, because they didn't know. That said, 3 weeks later case was closed because they couldn't find the perpetrator. That is despite me giving them video evidence and address of that person. Looks like our taxes are well spent.

Re: EU Council forces Chat Control via fast-track

#257

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wait until you see who's in charge of deciding who to prosecute! My first experience with German police was reporting a crime and then then discussing if they should arrest me for being involved with the crime, since I was there at the police station and therefore easier to arrest than the actual perpetrators.

In the UK, when I reported a crime, I had to pull out the book and read the verse what constitutes an assault for Police to record it, because they didn't know. That said, 3 weeks later case was closed because they couldn't find the perpetrator. That is despite me giving them video evidence and address of that person. Looks like our taxes are well spent.

They're well spent on different priorities than we have. The police are extremely effective at suppressing dissent.

Re: EU Council forces Chat Control via fast-track

#258

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not the parent, but chill with the aggressive tone. When you vote in your elections, you almost certainly know who's going to lead the country. Not so with the EU: look up Spitzenkandidat method and the deviations from it, including von der Leyen in 2019 being parachuted into her post not based on any vote.

No, I would rather people in this thread chilled with misinformation. My tone is appropriate.

I think those people are largely in your imagination. You seem to be assuming a whole lot of dark motives or unsavoury opinions in reaction to people simply saying the EU is not perfect.

Unrelated to this chat, but I wonder what your political leaning is, just to understand where this aggressive defense of the EU is coming from. I assume you're not left or right, not radical in any direction. Would you describe yourself as moderate/centrist/Starmer's Labour/Macronite?

Re: EU Council forces Chat Control via fast-track

#259

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These pro-surveillance narratives don't even attempt to look plausible, they are aimed at the average Joe/Mohammed/whoever with attention span of 10ms and IQ of a guppy.

How many pedos does Facebook catch by scanning DMs?

Less than it could by scanning Epstein files.

Re: EU Council forces Chat Control via fast-track

#260
post #101

This means the council has systematically overridden the will of both EU parliaments and states' objections in pushing this legislation. TLDR: there are, roughly and not 100% accurately speaking, 4 ways to make legislation at the EU level 1) commission + parliament (meaning the EU commission has initiative (veto rights over any law, like the US president), and parliament can only "propose amendments", which pass with…

This is completely wrong. Under the ordinary legislative procedure (used for Chat Control 1.0 & 2.0) the Commission proposes an act, then the Council and Parliament can approve it, reject it or amend it.

The act can be approved only if and when the Council and Parliament approve the exact same text

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