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Falling fertility on the left as key driver of US birth decline

nature.com

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Re: Falling fertility on the left as key driver of US birth decline

#131

Post by watwut »

OutOfHere wrote: post #98
rowanseymour wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know plenty of women who have delayed starting a family and they were well aware of the increased risks.. as they struggled to meet the right person, establish themselves professionally etc. They were certainly not brainwashed.

[flagged]

Having kid with the wrong person is even shittier experience then marrying them. You can divorce and never see the guy again, ut you cant get rid of baby daddy.

> meeting a partner in one's teen years, and getting it done by age 20 is best because one is the least picky then among all of one's fertile years

Considering staggering rates of violence, domestic abuse and even rape in such circles, this not the best individual decision. The kids themselves get abused and neglected way more often in those circles too.

Re: Falling fertility on the left as key driver of US birth decline

#132

Post by skeledrew »

Makes sense. Family creation and maintenance is a core philosophy of the right (see the various concerns surrounding family planning, education, queers, etc). There is a sort of Darwinian thing happening as a side effect of the held philosophies.

Re: Falling fertility on the left as key driver of US birth decline

#133

Post by nkrisc »

mike_hearn wrote: post #125
nkrisc wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you suggesting that no parents of your generation went to liberal schools?

For my parent's generation they were typically the first member of the family line to have ever gone to university and it was considered a point of immense pride to have done so. There seems to have been no concern back then about intellectual standards or political bias in universities, it wasn't a topic for the average parent. This got passed down. My brother and I were both encouraged to go to university, it was a…

My grandmother and most of her friends were socialists and they all had 4 or more children. Life is way more complicated than university = liberal = no kids.

Re: Falling fertility on the left as key driver of US birth decline

#134

Post by skeledrew »

vkou wrote: post #120
xyzelement wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Likewise in the 90s the idea of fearing unintentional pregnancy was intentionally infused into teen oriented TV shows and PSA. It created the idea that pregnancy is something to avoid unless you are super ready which is understood to have moved the needle. There's something beyond idiotic about a society that frames it's own reproduction as a negative.

There's something beyond idiotic about a society that goes out of its way to make having children an absolutely batshit insane decision for anyone before their mid-thirties. Doubly so when it blames children's television for its ills, instead of the obvious suspects of nuclear families (who have no free adult time for child care), dying rural areas (which push young adults to move away from their parents), a fucked u…

> There's something beyond idiotic about a society that goes out of its way to make having children an absolutely batshit insane decision for anyone before their mid-thirties.

From a biological perspective, the ideal age range for reproduction is late teens to early 30s[0]. Beyond that there's greatly decreased chances, and a sharp increase in potential complications. When it comes to the human condition, biology comes first, and then the rest follows. Otherwise you have population problems.

[0] https://www.betterhealth.vic.gov.au/health/conditionsandtrea...

Re: Falling fertility on the left as key driver of US birth decline

#135

Post by mrweasel »

nielsbot wrote: post #117
mrweasel wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, and it's not working, birthrates are still declining. The one factor that more than anything triggers declining birthrates are the level of education among women. We're going to have to adjust to smaller populations, unless we wish to devolve as a society.

…or stop educating women! I’m joking. But some religious types say it unironically.

That is sadly also true, hence my "or devolve as a society". Educating girls, and young women, results in fewer children, but it also yield richer and honestly better societies. You'd struggle to find a rich, first world country, where women don't receive proper education, but it's almost universally true for poor and dysfunctional countries.

Re: Falling fertility on the left as key driver of US birth decline

#136

Post by skeledrew »

watwut wrote: post #23
seff wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel like the obvious answer this topic is circling is that the left expresses more empathy to those outside their immediate circles (caring for the planet), while the right focuses their empathy inwardly (family values.) I think this is bait because it's the sort of thinking that 'feels right' without thinking too hard about it.

> while the right focuses their empathy inwardly (family values.) Not true. Right idea of family valuea is not about empathy and does not have much elements of empathy. It is more about establishing hierarchy and punishing you if you step put of it. It is not even like they would be more emphatic toward disabled close ones. They dont extend empathy toward abused or sexually harassed female familly member or kid. Or t…

> It is not even like they would be more emphatic toward disabled close ones. They dont extend empathy toward abused or sexually harassed female familly member or kid. Or to gay familly member.

From a biological/evolutionary standpoint, that's the correct approach. Anything that reduces - chances at - reproduction or makes the population less fit is an issue that makes said population tend toward extinction.

Re: Falling fertility on the left as key driver of US birth decline

#137

Post by skeledrew »

julianlam wrote: post #19

Every time this sort of news pops up, I think "why aren't they incentivising and subsidizing fertility treatment"? You want to raise the fertility rate, yes? You could convince an entire population to have more babies the hard way (social or economic pressure). Or literally just let the people who are already trying, but can't for some physiological reason, have one. They already want children, if they're pursuing fe…

Far less need for fertility treatment for those trying in their more fertile years (late teens to early 30s); that's when for the most part things "just work".

Re: Falling fertility on the left as key driver of US birth decline

#138

Post by skeledrew »

ryandrake wrote: post #106
thegrim33 wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It makes sense, but it's probably pretty far down on the list of "what could we put money towards in order to increase birthrate". Could probably get a lot more result for the money by funding efforts to pair people together, make them want to have kids, make them more financially equipped to have kids, etc.

Or, why not lean in to falling birthrates and try to build a society that doesn't rely on the population needing to increase infinitely? Everyone just acts as though replacement birthrate is simply something we must meet or exceed, because of dumb "line must always go up" economics. Can't we envision a functional world where the global population is halving every 40 years rather than doubling every 40 years?

> halving every 40 years

Sounds like a road to species extinction.

Re: Falling fertility on the left as key driver of US birth decline

#139

Post by skeledrew »

mrweasel wrote: post #30
nielsbot wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

don’t non-US countries already do this?

Yes, and it's not working, birthrates are still declining. The one factor that more than anything triggers declining birthrates are the level of education among women. We're going to have to adjust to smaller populations, unless we wish to devolve as a society.

The economics is a sizeable part of the issue. Fix - or preferably replace - the economy so that it's super affordable+rewarding to have and raise children. And make it more acceptable socially to start a family from late teen years (when fertility is just about already at peak).

Re: Falling fertility on the left as key driver of US birth decline

#140

Post by mike_hearn »

nkrisc wrote: post #133
mike_hearn wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For my parent's generation they were typically the first member of the family line to have ever gone to university and it was considered a point of immense pride to have done so. There seems to have been no concern back then about intellectual standards or political bias in universities, it wasn't a topic for the average parent. This got passed down. My brother and I were both encouraged to go to university, it was a…

My grandmother and most of her friends were socialists and they all had 4 or more children. Life is way more complicated than university = liberal = no kids.

The paper observes that this problem is relatively new and did not apply to your grandparent's generation.
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