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Falling fertility on the left as key driver of US birth decline

nature.com

121–130 of 172 posts

Re: Falling fertility on the left as key driver of US birth decline

#121

seems like an odd choice to so emphatically phrase this as a quality of "the left" when there are so clearly many plausible confounding factors (education, wealth, employment status, do you live in a small city apartment, etc.)

With academic social studies you can usually assume they've controlled for the basics like that, especially if the conclusions are unfortunate for the left which always means rigor gets ramped up significantly. They're working from large scale surveys and controlling for simple confounders is easy.

Sure enough:

> Arpino & Mogi explored mechanisms behind this reproductive pattern, finding that extreme right individuals were 4–5 percentage points more likely than centrists to intend having a child within three years. This effect persisted after controlling for religiosity, education, and income

You can just grep papers for "control" to check this sort of thing, as terminology is quite consistent.

There are big differences between left and right in fertility (=how many children you choose to have, in demographic discussions) and this isn't at all a controversial claim in social studies. The question is not does it exist or is it confounded but why does it occur - or if you really want, what underlying factors strongly correlated with leftism are the true cause. You can think of that as confounders if you like.

Re: Falling fertility on the left as key driver of US birth decline

#122

My take on this as someone who swings left is that desire for children isn’t meaningfully lower among the left, but would-be parents want to provide quality of life that is as good or preferably significantly better than that of their own childhoods. This rolls in several other assumptions, such as reasonable assurance of financial stability, low housing and relationship drama, capacity to take unexpected disaster in…

Providing a childhood that's as good as their own should be easy given the general increase in wealth, improvements in medical care and other technology, fall in violent crime and so on. Being better than your own childhood is the default even if you aren't more successful in a relative sense than your parents.

Re: Falling fertility on the left as key driver of US birth decline

#123
post #92

I hang out on fertility related sites and on twitter. It's an odd bunch. You have hardcore Jewish rabbis hanging with radical imams and dyed-in-the-wool Chinese communists and everyone in between. It's an issue, like climate change, that effects us all equally. No one has any good ideas about the root causes nor the solutions. It's apartments, it's land use taxes, it's cost of living, it's governmental policy. Sure,…

I also follow this space but can't agree with the claim that "No one has any good ideas about the root causes nor the solutions". There are pretty strong theories and ideas about the root causes, and those also lead to solutions. However they are anathema to the left so depending on what exact subspace you follow you may never see them (they'd be censored immediately).

For the same reason you won't get much of that kind of discussion here on Hacker News.

Re: Falling fertility on the left as key driver of US birth decline

#124
post #58

Isn't this simply because the political realignment in US resulted in an arrangement where higher incomes generally correlate with left-wing political views? And it's not exactly a new thing that higher incomes also correlate with fewer children. Indeed, they also point out that the finding only holds true for US whites but not for blacks. Which is also consistent with this being just a reflection of economic status.

This effect is present when controlling for income.

Re: Falling fertility on the left as key driver of US birth decline

#125
post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this makes a lot of sense. The parents of my generation (I am in my 40s) saw no danger in sending their kids to a university where every professor and student peer was super-left. A lot of their kids (my peers) ended up unmarried and childless as per this article. So in a way those parents got punished by evolutionary forces for not being careful enough about their kids. I can guarantee you that those of my g…

Are you suggesting that no parents of your generation went to liberal schools?

For my parent's generation they were typically the first member of the family line to have ever gone to university and it was considered a point of immense pride to have done so. There seems to have been no concern back then about intellectual standards or political bias in universities, it wasn't a topic for the average parent.

This got passed down. My brother and I were both encouraged to go to university, it was actually the assumed default and when my brother decided not to it was quite the mini scandal. He was sent to private meetings with the headmistress of the school to try and talk him out of the decision (not going was the right call, he did great without a degree and much better than anyone else). But any university would have done. Nobody had concerns about competence or bias.

A good question is whether that encouragement was because standards were higher. In some sense they must have been, at least for the quality of the student body, because they were so much more selective. But if you go back and read old scientific papers they were often not any better in terms of rigor or standards than papers are today and sometimes they were clearly worse. It wasn't noticed because there was no open access and no internet forums or social media where people could compare notes.

It seems obvious that at least some people are going to be way more selective about whether to help their children go to university nowadays. The costs are much higher, cheating is vastly more rampant so the value of a degree has been devalued a lot, and awareness of the very low intellectual standards is much more widespread.

Re: Falling fertility on the left as key driver of US birth decline

#126
post #53
post #6

[flagged]

That's a really funny way of looking at "Some right wingers end up repelling their children through sheer bigotry or just being terrible parents, and as a result, these poor children will find solace and friendship in an ideology opposite from their parents' one."

If that were the cause then university attendance wouldn't have any effect, but it has a massive one. This is a big part of why left wing politicians pushed so hard to increase university attendance in the 90s.

Re: Falling fertility on the left as key driver of US birth decline

#127
post #87

I didn't read the full paper only the abstract, but bc the political spectrum is correlated with education level or urban vs rural or multiple other factors that deeply impact what it is like to have kids. Of urban college educated professionals, do the conservatives still have more kids than the progressives? Or does the opportunity cost on careers plus the high cost of childcare plus the cost of living space impact…

Yes they do. Just grep the paper for the word "control" and you can quickly find the answers to these questions. This isn't a new finding and they've controlled for all the obvious factors.

Re: Falling fertility on the left as key driver of US birth decline

#128
Here's an organically written summary of the paper.

This is a plain vanilla regression analysis on the US GSS, which is a large poll of Americans done every year since the 1970s. Being a study of demographics it defines fertility to mean the number of children a couple has or doesn't have for any reason, a number which is driven primarily by people's decisions and not biological ability.

It shows only two things:

• The correlation between politics and fertility changes over time. It becomes really pronounced in the 1980s-1990s but during the baby boom years there is no link.

• It only applies to white Americans. Black Americans show no such correlation. However the study cites a paper claiming that black Americans don't understand the terms liberal and conservative well, and suggests that may be the cause of the divergence (a data quality issue not a real difference in fertility).

N.B. the title of the paper is deceptive. It claims a causal link but the paper itself admits the study is correlational and cannot establish causality. Misleading titles or abstracts are normal in academic social studies, unfortunately.

They cite other papers showing the same correlation holds in Europe. Rest of the world isn't considered.

It's surprising this paper got any attention and I'm not sure it'll get published in the end (it's early access). Regressions on US GSS are easy to do and many of them have been done before, there is nothing really new here.

Re: Falling fertility on the left as key driver of US birth decline

#129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Much of the party seems to be obsessed with children's genitals and fertility. Why can't they leave all this on their little island?

Is it so weird to think about the future of humanity? I want my children, and my children's childrens to have a good life as well.

They dont care about humanity. You can see that pretty clearly.

And conservatives were the punishing ones toward pregnant teens - the conservative answer to teenage pregnancy was to make her suffer as much as possible.

That is why it is especially appealing. The political groups that blamed pregnant teenagers and tried to ensure pregnancy destroyes their lives are complaining we dont have enough pregnant teenagers. And you can bet on them being cruel to pregnant teenagers again if that goes up again.

Re: Falling fertility on the left as key driver of US birth decline

#130

My take on this as someone who swings left is that desire for children isn’t meaningfully lower among the left, but would-be parents want to provide quality of life that is as good or preferably significantly better than that of their own childhoods. This rolls in several other assumptions, such as reasonable assurance of financial stability, low housing and relationship drama, capacity to take unexpected disaster in…

Providing a childhood that's as good as their own should be easy given the general increase in wealth, improvements in medical care and other technology, fall in violent crime and so on. Being better than your own childhood is the default even if you aren't more successful in a relative sense than your parents.

There was no general increase in wealth except among wealthiest.
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