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Solar rail could become common in Europe after successful trial in Switzerland

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Re: Solar rail could become common in Europe after successful trial in Switzerland

#91

Post by froggy »

dvh wrote: post #31

Solar cell is the only practically viable power source with no moving parts. Stop trying to attach it to moving things. Movements breaks things. Just put the panels by the rail, e.g. as vertical sound barriers in reasonable distance (to lower the pressure waves from train) from tracks. Or on a nearby field where it can be protected and inspected all at one place.

Protecting the panel from the freak large hail storm from inside the track also seems a lot harder than having it in a field with angle adjusting mounts/software.

Re: Solar rail could become common in Europe after successful trial in Switzerland

#92

Post by RetroTechie »

ryanmcbride wrote: post #50
dvh wrote: post #31

Solar cell is the only practically viable power source with no moving parts. Stop trying to attach it to moving things. Movements breaks things. Just put the panels by the rail, e.g. as vertical sound barriers in reasonable distance (to lower the pressure waves from train) from tracks. Or on a nearby field where it can be protected and inspected all at one place.

I'll never understand why people latch onto these kinds of solar "solutions" in search of problems. Like that solar roadways fiasco a decade or so ago. Just normal-ass solar is already safe proven and effective. Why do we need to remix it when there are still so many easy wins to be achieved?

> Like that solar roadways fiasco a decade or so ago.

Should have many of the same drawbacks, with 2 big differences:

1. Trains not driving directly on the panels' surface (which makes solar roadways a bad idea in any case). And

2. Trains on their own track, so the 'road surface' conditions of the panels (rain, snow etc) don't matter safety-wise.

That said: imho there's still so many spaces better suited to put solar panels, that between train tracks is among the last places I'd go for. Especially if it requires custom-design panels.

Re: Solar rail could become common in Europe after successful trial in Switzerland

#93

Post by prmoustache »

leni536 wrote: post #64
prmoustache wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Did we really fill up all the area on top of roofs, parkings lots, industrial areas, etc., and we're running out, and we have to put solar cells on railroads? I guess it is easier to control the deployment since they own the railroads.

And all the train depots and train stations are already covered in solar panels, I presume.

They don't need to because it is just a PoC and I don't think it hs been said anywhere that soloar panel between rain tracks would be the unique source of energy.

There are also a lot of vertical sound proofing barriers that could be equipped with panels.

Re: Solar rail could become common in Europe after successful trial in Switzerland

#94

Post by 6510 »

RetroTechie wrote: post #88
6510 wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is incorrect, you mean 180 kWp/m. > in one year, the project has produced around 16,000 kWh. 160 kWh per meter. Urban Metro / Trams: 2 to 10 kWh/km Commuter Trains (EMUs): 4 to 12 kWh/km Regional / Intercity Trains: 6 to 20 kWh/km High-Speed Trains: 15 to 60 kWh/km Freight Locomotives: 10 to 50+ kWh/km

> This is incorrect, you mean 180 kWp/m. This is incorrect. 18000 Wp/100m = 180 Wp/m or 180 kWp/km. So parent is correct, and you can either add or drop a "k". That is peak power, obtainable in summer months & muuch less in winter. Over the whole year: 16000 kWh/100m = 160 kWh/m = 160 MWh (160,000 kWh) per km.

Yes yes, and no. The k was obviously wrong, I cant believe I wrote that. lol

But you cant just drop the p. The p means you won't even get that.

This part seems correct tho:

> ...so it would take 50 km of panels to power one high speed train.

160 MWh/km * 50 km = 8 GWh = 8 000 000 kWh

High-Speed train after acceleration uses about 30 kWh/km

8GWh / 30kWh = 270000km

A typical high speed train in Europe drives between 300 000 and 450 000 km/year

The 50 km solar wouldn't be enough.

A passenger train using 6 kWh/km could drive 1 350 000 km using 50 km of solar.(27000 km/km)

There is about 10 000 km of high speed rail in the EU and about 200 000 km of rail in total. All combined trains travel some 4.1 billion km per year.

4 100 000 000 km / 27 000 km = 151 851 km

It fits but very slowly.

We should order the 72 888 480 panels. If they cost 50 euro each it would only cost 3.6 billion.

Took them 3 years to install 48 so 72 million would take 4.5 million years.

Maybe the Chinese can help.

Re: Solar rail could become common in Europe after successful trial in Switzerland

#95

Post by 6510 »

dn3500 wrote: post #87
6510 wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is incorrect, you mean 180 kWp/m. > in one year, the project has produced around 16,000 kWh. 160 kWh per meter. Urban Metro / Trams: 2 to 10 kWh/km Commuter Trains (EMUs): 4 to 12 kWh/km Regional / Intercity Trains: 6 to 20 kWh/km High-Speed Trains: 15 to 60 kWh/km Freight Locomotives: 10 to 50+ kWh/km

It's obviously not 180 kWp/m. If it was I could put 1 meter of panels on my roof and power my house and 200 of my neighbors. I didn't try to calculate the amount of energy it produces in a year, just the length of panels required to power a high speed train when the sun is shining. 18,000 watts / 100 meters is 180 watts per meter. At 180 watts per meter, 50 km gives you 9 MW, which is about what a high speed train co…

Sorry, I ran away from the keyboard without validating. The point I was trying to make was that Wp means you don't even get 180 W per meter.

Re: Solar rail could become common in Europe after successful trial in Switzerland

#96

Post by JumpCrisscross »

hx8 wrote: post #72
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's solar, of course the unit economics are going to pencil out positive in the majority of climates and energy markets This is far from an of course. There were idiots trying to do solar roads a few years ago. The math didn't pencil out.

1. That was 20 years ago. I wonder how it would pencil out now. 2. Yeah it was kind of dumb to put the panels into a high wear environment like a road. 3. What matters more is which projects pencil out the best. There are too many to choose from that have a positive ROI.

> 3. What matters more is which projects pencil out the best. There are too many to choose from that have a positive ROI

Sure. I'm unconvinced a railroad is the best place we need to be putting panels for anything other than PR value.

Re: Solar rail could become common in Europe after successful trial in Switzerland

#97

Post by hx8 »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #96
hx8 wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1. That was 20 years ago. I wonder how it would pencil out now. 2. Yeah it was kind of dumb to put the panels into a high wear environment like a road. 3. What matters more is which projects pencil out the best. There are too many to choose from that have a positive ROI.

> 3. What matters more is which projects pencil out the best. There are too many to choose from that have a positive ROI Sure. I'm unconvinced a railroad is the best place we need to be putting panels for anything other than PR value.

If PR value gets panels installed faster than they otherwise would be who cares. The most important thing is we install as much solar as possible as quickly as possible, because we're killing ourselves fighting wars for other energy sources that poison our entire planet to use.

Re: Solar rail could become common in Europe after successful trial in Switzerland

#98

Post by ceejayoz »

froggy wrote: post #91
dvh wrote: post #31

Solar cell is the only practically viable power source with no moving parts. Stop trying to attach it to moving things. Movements breaks things. Just put the panels by the rail, e.g. as vertical sound barriers in reasonable distance (to lower the pressure waves from train) from tracks. Or on a nearby field where it can be protected and inspected all at one place.

Protecting the panel from the freak large hail storm from inside the track also seems a lot harder than having it in a field with angle adjusting mounts/software.

None of the new solar fields in my area (upstate NY) have adjustable mounts. I presume it's not worth the maintenance overhead. Easier to build more panels.

Re: Solar rail could become common in Europe after successful trial in Switzerland

#99

Post by ryanmcbride »

dukeyukey wrote: post #90
ryanmcbride wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which is just odd to me because why are we holding one of the cleanest means of generating electricity to a higher standard than like, coal and oil? Why does solar have to have 0 footprint when everything else gets as much of a footprint as it wants? (I know the answer is profit)

That is not the answer (plenty of profit in solar), it's probably that society is literally older and so people don't like change as much.

I know there's profit in solar, but the game is rigged to favor oil and gas so that's still more profitable for the people who make the decisions.

Re: Solar rail could become common in Europe after successful trial in Switzerland

#100

Post by parineum »

ryanmcbride wrote: post #79
acdha wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, I can understand putting solar on things when it lets them become standalone off-the-grid setups but for something like railroad track it’s just not that much space and the costs are so much higher. Except on the tightest urban lines, just putting rows of normal panels next to the tracks should be significantly more space with much easier engineering.

Exactly. For example, I think the lifted solar panels that have been popping up over parking lots are a perfect win-win. Cars get shade, power gets generated, it's out of the way of most day-to-day threats, and if they have to do repairs, it's just blocking off part of a parking lot instead of a major thoroughfare. If there's a single downside I'm not sure what it is.

The closest thing to a downside I can come up with is that, at least in CA, there's more than enough solar already. Adding solar to the grid without batteries included isn't really productive.
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