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EU Council forces Chat Control via fast-track

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Re: EU Council forces Chat Control via fast-track

#61

Post by neobrain »

flumpcakes wrote: post #59
neobrain wrote: post #49

For context, this refers to "Chat Control 1.0", allowing facebook and other messaging providers to scan chats for harmful content (which they had been temporarily allowed to do by a recently expired law). This is still problematic, but the far more dangerous Chat Control 2.0 that would weaken end-to-end-encrypted messengers like Signal is not being discussed here. Not to diminish the gravity of the new development, b…

Isn't this something they already do? I would be utterly shocked if facebook et al. were not scanning all of your messages (either in transit or at terminus to get around 'E2E' claims).

Yes, this had been temporarily permitted until recently, and AFAIK they continue doing so illegally at the moment.

Re: EU Council forces Chat Control via fast-track

#62

Post by surgical_fire »

neobrain wrote: post #49

For context, this refers to "Chat Control 1.0", allowing facebook and other messaging providers to scan chats for harmful content (which they had been temporarily allowed to do by a recently expired law). This is still problematic, but the far more dangerous Chat Control 2.0 that would weaken end-to-end-encrypted messengers like Signal is not being discussed here. Not to diminish the gravity of the new development, b…

Those narratives pop up from users that have a clear anti-EU bias (and I suspect they might not even be from the EU considering how ignorant they seem to be about how it works, its function ans structure, etc.

Re: EU Council forces Chat Control via fast-track

#63

Post by Lio »

stavros wrote: post #13
sph wrote: post #11

This is democracy manifest. What a joke.

We have been enjoying a succulent Chinese meal.

Yeah and Peter Hummelgaard is about to touch you on the penis.

> "We must break with the totally erroneous perception that it is everyone's civil liberty to communicate on encrypted messaging services,"

What an arsehole.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/politics/government/danish-justice...

Re: EU Council forces Chat Control via fast-track

#64

Post by flumpcakes »

mattrighetti wrote: post #15

They're not going to stop, are they?

Who is they?

These pithy remarks don't really extend the debate or have any nuance - they just sound conspiratorial.

There are plenty of reasons to "scan" communications.

There are plenty of reasons to have limits on communication "scanning".

What part of the spectrum do you fall on?

Re: EU Council forces Chat Control via fast-track

#65

Post by joe_mamba »

surgical_fire wrote: post #56
joe_mamba wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The central bank, council, and commission have to get thoroughly investigated. By WHO?! They are THE (unelected) ruling elite. Who's gonna prosecute them?

They are not unelected. The EU Council is made up of the head of government of each member state. They are all elected. The commissioners are picked by the heads of state (elected) and the EU parliament (also elected). This does not absolve them from wrongdoing, but you should understand where your complaints should be directed at.

>They are not unelected.

After how many layers does the democratic part get watered down and is just members of the elite picking other elites?

  Role                         | Chosen by                                            | Direct citizen vote?
  -----------------------------+------------------------------------------------------+----------------------------
  Commission President         | European Council proposes, European Parliament elects| No (indirect via EP)
  European Council President   | European Council (27 heads of state)                 | No
  European Parliament President| MEPs elect from among themselves                     | No (indirect via EP)
  ECB President                | European Council, after consulting Parliament        | No

Re: EU Council forces Chat Control via fast-track

#66

Post by theodric »

SilverElfin wrote: post #53
theodric wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do you suggest people be intolerant? Essentially all the parties work toward these goals, so voting is ineffective. Speech is (more-or-less) allowed until it turns into strident protest, at which point the water cannons are brought out and a few token agitators are prosecuted for their instigation. I wouldn't want to call this tyranny, because I might get a knock on the door.

Why not emphasize the issue of civil rights and make it disqualifying as a single issue for any politician? At least online it feels like people care about chat control a lot but when it comes to voting, the type of dystopian control EU bureaucrats are building isn’t in anyone’s mind. So politicians can get away with supporting those policies since there isn’t a consequence for them.

"Online people" who care about this sort of thing are a microscopic subset of the voting base and do not represent what most people are aware of, understand, or care about. I live in Ireland, and you know what everyone in town and around my area talks about? Donald Trump. When I try and raise issues of national or European politics, I get whatabouted into more American politics. The bread is sweeter (it's the corn syrup) and the circuses more outrageous.

Re: EU Council forces Chat Control via fast-track

#67

Post by surgical_fire »

joe_mamba wrote: post #65
surgical_fire wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They are not unelected. The EU Council is made up of the head of government of each member state. They are all elected. The commissioners are picked by the heads of state (elected) and the EU parliament (also elected). This does not absolve them from wrongdoing, but you should understand where your complaints should be directed at.

>They are not unelected. After how many layers does the democratic part get watered down and is just members of the elite picking other elites? Role | Chosen by | Direct citizen vote? -----------------------------+------------------------------------------------------+---------------------------- Commission President | European Council proposes, European Parliament elects| No (indirect via EP) European Council Presid…

I live in a country where the prime minister is picked by the parliament. I don't directly vote for him.

By your own ridiculous standards, I don't live in a democracy. I fact, any paliamentarism would not be democratic based on that.

Re: EU Council forces Chat Control via fast-track

#68

Post by petcat »

Lio wrote: post #54
petcat wrote: post #7

Am I crazy or is this website not allowing me to opt out of cookie tracking unless I sign up for a subscription? I know the EU cookie banners have basically ruined the internet, but this seems like a whole 'nother level of obnoxious.

It's not EU cookie banners that have ruined the internet, it's malicious compliance and dark pattens on behalf of those that want to track you.

The EU's own government websites have these same cookie banners. Are they maliciously compliant with their own regulations?

EU made bad laws that have encouraged this kind of behavior. And now we're all suffering.

Look at the CCPA in California for legislation that accomplishes largely the same goals, but doesn't break the web due to "malicious compliance".

Re: EU Council forces Chat Control via fast-track

#69

Post by flumpcakes »

SpicyLemonZest wrote: post #30
MichaelZuo wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is a bit strange why EU countries allow their own credibility and legitimacy get steadily dragged down, bit by bit, by all these thousands of dubious statements, tricks, manoeuvres, and so on. Do they just not care about weakening their own societies?

I guess I'm not sure what's dubious here. The article says they're circumventing "democratic control bodies", but I don't know what that means (perhaps it's a more common phrase in German?), and it sounds like the European Parliament can still vote to reject Chat Control if they don't want it. The article strongly implies there's something dubious going on here, but to me what would be dubious is a procedure that pre…

Perhaps the article is biased.

The simple fact is that a law that existed since 2011 and expired in April is now back in effect. So we are back where we were on February.

I don't remember moving from an anti-democratic hell scape to serene democratic beauty back in April so it's probably a nothing-burger.

I often see news articles that trade on the fact the general populace aren't professional bureaucrats and so frame anything happening in unpopular ways.

Re: EU Council forces Chat Control via fast-track

#70

Post by flumpcakes »

SilverElfin wrote: post #38

Governments don’t work for people. Yet they use terms like democracy all the time. The repeated attempts at chat control are so blatantly anti civil rights but also disrespectful of democratic principles. Why do EU citizens tolerate this? Are they okay being made a fool of or is this just not an issue for them after all?

> Why do EU citizens tolerate this?

Some EU citizens want it? You'd be surprised on the views of some people.

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