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> This is a prime example of why programmers are not seriously considered engineers. Seems to me like your comment is simply an example of prejudice. You're just describing another standardized incentive structure that you're operating in, and using that as a basis to extrapolate that programmers of all kinds—whether they work on a video platform or on machinery that could cause catastrophe if it fails—are implicitly…
The prejudice seems to be everywhere. Unfortunately, to my knowledge. Eg. architects vs construction engineers vs land surveyors vs construction designers vs urban planners… anyone of them thinks that their profession is more valuable than the others…
Leaking YouTube creators' private videos
201–210 of 436 posts
Re: Leaking YouTube creators' private videos
#202Re: Leaking YouTube creators' private videos
#203Earlier quoted context omitted.
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>my engineering licence would be revoked and I would be kicked out of the industry. This isn't because you're a "real" engineer, it's because of regulation and industry licensing around specific engineering disciplines that didn't exist until the start of the 20th century. Railroad engineers in the 1800's didn't have the same set of regulations to follow, or the same liability for mistakes. Software engineering could…
Re: Leaking YouTube creators' private videos
#204Earlier quoted context omitted.
Of all the fucked up things in this comment, giving a single Engineer lifetime responsibility for all bugs in code they wrote is probably the dumbest. And it's slowly becoming the norm. The last place I worked at, a large and well known Tech company, didn't even roll with QA's. That just wasn't a role anywhere in the division. You are fully responsible for all the bugs in all the code you ever wrote Cute at first. Un…
I disagree with this pretty strongly. If you’re not going to take responsibility for your bugs I don’t want to work with you. Don’t make other people QA your work; if you’re not able to figure out how to do that yourself while you work you’re legitimately bad at your job. Once you leave an employer obviously you have no obligation to fix bugs in IP you don’t own or anything.
Depends on what "taking responsibility" means.
> Don’t make other people QA your work; if you’re not able to figure out how to do that yourself while you work you’re legitimately bad at your job.
At a distance I agree with this, but closer to the details, eh... Having worked with excellent QA and QE people, they just think differently than I and other programmers I've worked with do, in a useful way, so I think it's a shame (even if understandable) how such roles have been killed industry wide for over a decade. "Hybrid" doesn't really cut it. But yes, I get pissed when a code review comes my way and the author clearly didn't bother to even run their own code because when I notice something wrong and try it, lo and behold it doesn't work. I imagine some even less competent places throw over reviews (or just push straight to master) that don't even compile. I won't get into basic automated testing. I believe programmers should have a professional ethos to learn new things to make themselves better at their craft, with or without management support or even paid company time for it, this includes ways to think about better achieving quality goals.
> Once you leave an employer obviously you have no obligation to fix bugs in IP you don’t own or anything.
This is the crux of the issue: the employer always owns the code, not the individual, and so to me it's the employer's job to be responsible for any defects. A sensible employer probably recognizes that often the author of the code is the best one to fix it -- but this is also part of why it's so important to have code reviews, because then in theory you have at least two people who are somewhat familiar with the code. At the same time, coding, like everything else, is subject to stochastic quality issues. Employees work within a system, many issues are caused by the system, and only management can change the system. Take some lessons from Deming's red bead experiment: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7pXu0qxtWPg (Write-up: https://web.archive.org/web/20251212234933/https://maaw.info...)
Re: Leaking YouTube creators' private videos
#205Earlier quoted context omitted.
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I think there is a fine line. YouTube is not critical software and no one’s life depends on the safety (putting mental health aside) of the code running. Some software engineers do however write code that is critical, but to your point, I don’t think they are ever considered liable. I went through an acquisition as a Canadian software developer getting acquired by an American company. They wanted us to be called engi…
It's not a protected title in Sweden, but we still refused, because we were nothing like engineers. We were a minuscule team of mostly self-taught hackers who happened to be employed to solve business problems in a system for managing other companies and their customers. I had some idea of the rigour of engineering but my colleagues did not, still, they also weren't willing to appropriate the title.
This lead to meetings with this person being quite uncomfortable at times, embarrassing even. To me it was an obvious sign that they were unfit for managing roles. Two thirds of the team, me included, resigned at the same time after they had been increasingly active in the management of the technical department.
Since he was on the board the CEO could not get rid of him even though he knew that this person was destroying the dev team.
Re: Leaking YouTube creators' private videos
#206Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Why the hell should I be responsible and how is this sustainable? Well, it works for professional engineers, you know, the people designing bridges, tunnels, heavy machinery, aircraft, spacecraft or medical instruments. When something happens and they can't show that their work adhered to the generally accepted best standards at the time... they're held liable. And sometimes, that liability includes jail time, part…
I think the problem I see with your argument is that people simply do not value reliable and secure consumer software as much as they'd value reliable and secure airplanes. Of course, software that is in charge of things where people value security a lot, such as the software in airplanes, is much more scrutinized and adheres to better standards. This is the case precisely because when it goes bad people die in ways…
Because the incentive to care is not there, we'll see things changing when self-driving cats is mainstream
Re: Leaking YouTube creators' private videos
#207Earlier quoted context omitted.
The prejudice seems to be everywhere. Unfortunately, to my knowledge. Eg. architects vs construction engineers vs land surveyors vs construction designers vs urban planners… anyone of them thinks that their profession is more valuable than the others…
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This is a fundamentalist perspective; it's hard to dispute that if we didn't have any roads, houses, or cat videos, we would need new roads more than we needed new cat videos.
It's much easier to dispute the idea that we currently need new roads more than we need new cat videos; we already have a lot of roads.
Re: Leaking YouTube creators' private videos
#208I recently left Google having worked on a number of projects with various YouTube teams. I think I can explain why it's being handled this way by YouTube. This is a fairly nuanced/involved issue, so the task of classifying the bug likely made it's way to one of the engineers responsible for the implementation of this feature. That engineer has already launched this project, and filed it away under their GRAD (perform…
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Introduce the same system at train engineering companies and you'll get the same result.
Re: Leaking YouTube creators' private videos
#209Earlier quoted context omitted.
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>my engineering licence would be revoked and I would be kicked out of the industry. This isn't because you're a "real" engineer, it's because of regulation and industry licensing around specific engineering disciplines that didn't exist until the start of the 20th century. Railroad engineers in the 1800's didn't have the same set of regulations to follow, or the same liability for mistakes. Software engineering could…
Re: Leaking YouTube creators' private videos
#210Earlier quoted context omitted.
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>my engineering licence would be revoked and I would be kicked out of the industry. This isn't because you're a "real" engineer, it's because of regulation and industry licensing around specific engineering disciplines that didn't exist until the start of the 20th century. Railroad engineers in the 1800's didn't have the same set of regulations to follow, or the same liability for mistakes. Software engineering could…