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As downtown Seattle offices empty, city facing years of 'zombie' towers

seattletimes.com

41–50 of 238 posts

Re: As downtown Seattle offices empty, city facing years of 'zombie' towers

#41

If you haven't lived in Seattle, it's hard to understand the problem. It's multifaceted; business climate, generally poor quality of the city itself as a walking / working destination, extremely hostile to business city government, and greener pastures (literally) east across the bay, which happen to be closer to some very large headquarters. The die was largely cast when Amazon called Seattle's bluff during COVID an…

Seattle's DT business district had always been uniquely bad. Everything is for office workers and closes at 5pm. There is nothing else but offices and restaurants serving coffee for breakfast and workplace meeting suitable lunches.

It is an example of piss poor planning and urban design.

Re: As downtown Seattle offices empty, city facing years of 'zombie' towers

#42
post #40

If you haven't lived in Seattle, it's hard to understand the problem. It's multifaceted; business climate, generally poor quality of the city itself as a walking / working destination, extremely hostile to business city government, and greener pastures (literally) east across the bay, which happen to be closer to some very large headquarters. The die was largely cast when Amazon called Seattle's bluff during COVID an…

How did Amazon relocate? I think most employees are still traveling to SLU to their offices.

Amazon didn't "relocate" - they just moved most of their new hiring to Bellevue.

Re: As downtown Seattle offices empty, city facing years of 'zombie' towers

#43
post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Large parts of the floor would be illegal to hand to anyone due to lack of natural light: This is weird regulation to me. Why it is not allowed for apartment, but it is OK for office? Both buildings are sheltering humans, just during different stage of being awake.

Like the GP said: in offices the floor is often a big open space where light from windows can extend a long way. But once you start dividing up that big space into smaller residential units with walls, that light gets blocked.

I don't think bedrooms really need windows and in some ways they're preferable with the light & noise reductions.

Even if that's solved the bigger problem is earthquake code. These older buildings aren't up to modern code and significant renovations would require structure changes.

Re: As downtown Seattle offices empty, city facing years of 'zombie' towers

#44
post #18

New York City: Hold my Negroni aperitivo. I have faith in the Big Apple administration's ability to become a leader on this metric.

According to the graph in the article, NYC is doing about average, and LA/SF are the other front-runners.

It will be interesting to see how that changes with mamdani. Depending on who you ask, it will either bring in the Utopia or it will be a devastating waste, but very few people expect not much to change.

Thing is, it takes years to move so it will be a while until we see the results. Regardless of which side you tend to be on, it seems like it will be a useful experiment!

Re: As downtown Seattle offices empty, city facing years of 'zombie' towers

#45

I know that commercial and residential building codes are different, but you would think converting them to residential units would fix this..

On top of architectural issues like plumbing and access to windows, cities like NYC have programs where converting economically obsolete offices to residential exempts the building from property taxes if at least some units are for low-income renters.

Re: As downtown Seattle offices empty, city facing years of 'zombie' towers

#46
post #43
post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Like the GP said: in offices the floor is often a big open space where light from windows can extend a long way. But once you start dividing up that big space into smaller residential units with walls, that light gets blocked.

I don't think bedrooms really need windows and in some ways they're preferable with the light & noise reductions. Even if that's solved the bigger problem is earthquake code. These older buildings aren't up to modern code and significant renovations would require structure changes.

[deleted]

Re: As downtown Seattle offices empty, city facing years of 'zombie' towers

#47
post #37
post #32

The article notes that the US overall office vacancy rate is 23%. Seattle is 37%. Have we reached "peak office" at last? How many people in offices does society really need, anyway?

A lot if it wants to do interesting things.

Are you saying we need to be in the office and not remote to do interesting things?

Or are you misunderstanding the context and talking about employment or something?

Re: As downtown Seattle offices empty, city facing years of 'zombie' towers

#48

New York City: Hold my Negroni aperitivo. I have faith in the Big Apple administration's ability to become a leader on this metric.

NYC appears to be at least somewhat ahead on converting older office stock to residential stock, and I don’t expect the current administration would attempt to slow that down (it has no particular political valence in the city that I can discern).

Re: As downtown Seattle offices empty, city facing years of 'zombie' towers

#49

If you haven't lived in Seattle, it's hard to understand the problem. It's multifaceted; business climate, generally poor quality of the city itself as a walking / working destination, extremely hostile to business city government, and greener pastures (literally) east across the bay, which happen to be closer to some very large headquarters. The die was largely cast when Amazon called Seattle's bluff during COVID an…

Seattle here. The problem isn't that there's too little "planning" or "zoning". Where that's relevant, there's too much. The city has used those tools over and over to slow growth and tack on requirements for businesses.

I'm not aligned with the new mayor's business-hostile policies. But as far as making the city better for walking, things are going very well. We've been narrowing crossing distances, improving sidewalks, putting in concrete separation for bike lanes, we even finally kicked cars out of Pike Place Market. There are parks improvements in progress across the city to improve restrooms and fix dangerous spots. And the number of people in tent encampments has dropped dramatically, it's become rare and short lived in most of the city.

I suspect that we will continue to recover, despite the capital gains tax. It'll just be slower than Bellevue.

Re: As downtown Seattle offices empty, city facing years of 'zombie' towers

#50
post #7

I know that commercial and residential building codes are different, but you would think converting them to residential units would fix this..

The article goes into this: > The city of Seattle estimates that, with aggressive incentives, conversions could generate up to 6,000 housing units over the next seven years. At a rough approximation, that would use around a fifth of the city’s present office surplus. > But “potential” is doing a lot of work here. > Newer, larger office buildings, like the U.S. Bank Center, are hugely impractical for conversion, thank…

There have been some attempts to convert office buildings with large rectangular floors into long, narrow apartments so every apartment has a window. It's possible, but difficult.[1]

Plumbing and sewerage turns out to be a huge headache. Large office buildings often have all the plumbing and sewerage in a small vertical core. The rest of the building is just flat slabs on columns. Adding a sewer line means punching through the floor and hanging pipe in the space above the apartments below. If you're in SF and want to see what that looks like, park in the 4th and Mission garage on the lower level, where you can see the plumbing from the restaurants above hanging from the ceiling. Also, sewer lines are gravity fed, with a 2% slope typical. Long pipe runs get lower along the run, so you probably have to put them along a wall. Then you have to hide and soundproof that stuff, although you might be able to get away with leaving it exposed if you market to hipsters or sell it as low-income housing. If the original building has enough ceiling height, it's easier.

Then there's HVAC, exhaust ductwork for kitchens and bathrooms without windows, partitioning the electrical distribution for the individual units, fire breaks between units, etc. Overall, it's maybe 30% cheaper than a new building, and all custom work requiring experienced people. If botched, it can be more expensive than a new building.

One company that does such conversions admits they're building tomorrow's slums.

And then there's the fundamental problem that if jobs are leaving the downtown core, why have more housing units there?

[1] https://www.pbs.org/newshour/economy/analysis-heres-what-it-...

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