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The bottleneck might be the air in the room

blog.mikebowler.ca

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Re: The bottleneck might be the air in the room

#131

Post by raffael_de »

deanc wrote: post #13

I’m not saying this isn’t a legitimate concern but this really seems to have exploded amongst the tech community as the next obsession. I see this pop up on X every few weeks. Is the concern about this really based on actual science? Is there empirical data proving people are less productive or are damaging themselves as a result of heightened CO2 levels? And I don’t mean observational epidemiology studies.

That is also my impression. CO2 build up provides a neat opportunity to carry around sensors, track something, display graphs and formulate quantifiable sets of rules. And also is a (more or less) interesting topic to discuss with others. Seems highly appealing to a large part of the crowd here. Personally, I only observed that some people are obsessed about having always one or more windows open but I never personally experienced any non-obvious problems with CO2 buildup. At some point the air is just smellably getting thick and then you just air out. Wouldn't need sensors for that.

Re: The bottleneck might be the air in the room

#132

Post by embedding-shape »

microtonal wrote: post #108
embedding-shape wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm using a bunch of IKEA's "smart home" stuff, all via Zigbee+HA, works great. Look for the Zigbee icon on the package, and the pairing for Zigbee vs their own home controller might have slightly different pairing sequence on the device, otherwise it just seems to work.

ALSTUGA does not work with Zigbee. They recently overhauled their lineup and replaced all Zigbee devices by Thread + Matter. Some of the new devices (mostly those who support TouchLink, e.g. some of the lights) have a secret pairing mode with which you can use them with Zigbee, but it's only a subset of the new products.

> They recently overhauled their lineup and replaced all Zigbee devices by Thread + Matter.

Uuh, seems not keeping up with social media finally backfired. That sounds horrible! So far IKEA been a great experience when it comes to HA+Zigbee stuff, and I started buying stuff relying on they'd keep just keeping up with that, really sad to hear they've changed course.

The "secret pairing mode" stuff sounds the same as currently/before though, but they only do so for a subset is new and hope they again change their mind.

Re: The bottleneck might be the air in the room

#133

Post by inigyou »

bebe9494i4 wrote: post #19
throwaway81523 wrote: post #7

Don't forget too, if the CO2 is 1000 ppm, then half of the air in each breath you inhale was recently exhaled by someone else. Yes, airborne viruses are still spreading. I still wear an N95 mask whenever I'm in an indoor space with other people outside of home. IKEA now has a remarkably cheap ($35) air quality monitor that measures CO2 as well as PM: https://www.ikea.com/us/en/p/alpstuga-air-quality-sensor-sma... I d…

[flagged]

Would that not induce a responsibility to take reasonable preventative measures like wearing masks?

Re: The bottleneck might be the air in the room

#134

Post by teekert »

I also use my Aranet everywhere. The nice thing is you quickly develop a feel for when you need to ventilate spaces you know so you don’t need it there anymore. I also developed a feeling for new (to me) rooms a bit.

I once woke up with the fam in a hotel with airco at 5500 ppm. It is then that I learned the airco does not blow fresh air (logical after thinking about it).

Re: The bottleneck might be the air in the room

#135

Post by raffael_de »

ifwinterco wrote: post #89
deanc wrote: post #13

I’m not saying this isn’t a legitimate concern but this really seems to have exploded amongst the tech community as the next obsession. I see this pop up on X every few weeks. Is the concern about this really based on actual science? Is there empirical data proving people are less productive or are damaging themselves as a result of heightened CO2 levels? And I don’t mean observational epidemiology studies.

It's peak HN meme material because 1) it (allegedly) affects your intelligence which everyone here values highly 2) you can measure it, it's a number 3) requires tech to measure it So perfect for HN, you can obsess over numbers and tech and how to measure it endlessly and overhype the significance to trick yourself into thinking you're doing something useful. You get to have your cake and eat it, no wonder everyone l…

Also this is finally a great reason to order a dozen Arduinos + sensors for a domestic IoT project.

Re: The bottleneck might be the air in the room

#136

Post by u1hcw9nx »

deanc wrote: post #13

I’m not saying this isn’t a legitimate concern but this really seems to have exploded amongst the tech community as the next obsession. I see this pop up on X every few weeks. Is the concern about this really based on actual science? Is there empirical data proving people are less productive or are damaging themselves as a result of heightened CO2 levels? And I don’t mean observational epidemiology studies.

The article links into two controlled experiments.

Re: The bottleneck might be the air in the room

#137

Post by i_am_proteus »

b112 wrote: post #95
stein1946 wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Raising awareness is the only real solution. You'd have to raise awareness on every single person in the room and them sustain pressure to the organization in order to have proper CO2 levels in the room/organization. And then you have to align every other person on every other organization to do this as well and hope for the best. Or, you can do the right thing and have the state introduce regulations

I can just imagine the horrors and skin crawls that your last sentence has evoked in some people's minds. Not the state!! But seriously, so much care needs to be taken here. OK, well "care" at least. Employers certainly would benefit from scrubbing CO2 from the air, in terms of productivity. I'm willing to bet that with central air it would be quite easy, and even with heat and AC off, lots of places still circulate…

In practice, one would use energy recovery ventilation to exchange air with outside rather than a CO2 scrubber (not clear if you actually meant a scrubber).

The place to look is existing codes for ventilation. Exempli gratia: https://dos.ny.gov/system/files/documents/2020/09/2020-mcnys... (see PDF page 46). Regulations to enforce outside air being brought into human spaces already exist.

I have been in some office buildings in United States which had CO2 monitors in each meeting room, and the ventilation would engage to control CO2 below a set level. We would entertain ourselves by exhausting our lungs onto the sensors to trigger the ventilation system.

Re: The bottleneck might be the air in the room

#138

Post by jumploops »

Indoor air quality improvements were one of my “pandemic sourdough” activities.

After testing a variety of AQI sensors, I ended up acquiring multiple Airthings-branded devices.

They provided the best mix of CO2/VOCs/PM sensors in a single device with a decent enough app.

There may be better options now, but I have these at both home and office.

Highly recommend doing the research and learning about the environments you’re in, especially if you have little ones at home.

Edit to add: opening windows is usually the easiest/best solution!

Re: The bottleneck might be the air in the room

#139

Post by londons_explore »

microtonal wrote: post #115
gpt5 wrote: post #6

I really wish a Apple or another major OEM would integrate CO2 monitor into watches or smartphones. Suddenly, everybody would be aware of the CO2 level in the room, get alerts, etc. and the problem will just solve itself. There are so many rooms, classrooms, movie theaters and other places with poor ventilation where you just feel dizzy, or fall asleep, not knowing it was just due to lower oxygen levels in your blood…

I think the issue is that the common tech requires sensors in an air-chamber. E.g. NDIR works by firing IR at a frequency that is absorbed by CO2. A sensor on the other side either measures the amount of IR light that got through (optical NDIR) or pressure/sound waves (photoacoustic NDIR). I guess that it's hard to use any existing sensors, because they are relatively large and probably water could easily get into th…

Oxygen sensors used in car catalyst systems use a different effect based on electrochemistry. I see no reason that couldn't be minuaritized to grain-of-sand size.

The question is if oxygen levels are as good an indicator as CO2 levels... I suspect not.

Re: The bottleneck might be the air in the room

#140

Post by benj111 »

oasisbob wrote: post #34
scoot wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple watches already have a blood-oxygen sensor so it's covered, albeit indirectly.

I don't think that's true at all. Capnography, the measure of carbon dioxide partial pressure is wholly separate from pulseox: > Pulse oximeters have some limitations. They can only employ light at two wavelengths. Thus the devices can only distinguish between hemoglobin and oxygenated hemoglobin. When carboxyhemoglobin and methemoglobin are also present, there are two additional wavelengths required for differentiat…

>Pulse oximeters have some limitations. They can only employ light at two wavelengths

Why only 2?

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