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Tesla Was Cash Flow Positive Last Week, CEO Musk Says

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Re: Tesla Was Cash Flow Positive Last Week, CEO Musk Says

#131

Post by Tuna-Fish »

sukuriant wrote: post #121
omni wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the very limited areas where there is currently Supercharger coverage. Also, 30 minutes for a charge isn't exactly fast.

It's fast enough for most needs. If you're traveling across country, a 30 minute break every 5 hours might be just what the doctor ordered. If you break apart your eating times just right, you can have it coincide with eating times. If charge time were reduced to 30 minutes in the general case for electric cars, I'd be much, much more likely to consider them a viable alternative to my current car. We just need the in…

How about the car that can use the infrastructure that already exists?

All this talk about new transportation fuels imho always sidesteps the fact that gasoline will never run out.

Petroleum will, but producing gasoline out of other sources is something that we already know how to do, and have done in industrial scale in the past. Fischer-Tropsch is cost-effective from coal at some point below $150 oil price. If you want to be carbon neutral, you just have to use a carbon feedstock that fills from the atmosphere, and a carbon neutral heat source.

A hydrogen economy is a complete hoax. If you want to make your fuel synthetically, hydrogen has practically no advantages over synthetic gasoline.

Re: Tesla Was Cash Flow Positive Last Week, CEO Musk Says

#132

Post by jlgreco »

temp453463343 wrote: post #105
dave1619 wrote: post #86

Tesla Motors is in great shape. I've been following the company for a while and recently drove the Model S. Amazing car in almost every way. What struck me was that it's not an incremental improvement but really a radical (might I say disruptive) improvement in terms of ride quality (super quiet), handling (low center of gravity with skateboard powertrain), electronics (17" touchscreen), cargo space (heard of the fru…

I think it's a bit of a shame that they're playing the game on the same terms as the other car companies. You're absolutely right that each model seems to target a particular "class" of cars. I think a little more adventurous designs would have been great. For instance I think it would have been perfect if they made a Tesla land-yacht in the style of 70's cars. Big, heavy (lots of room for extra batteries), nice cush…

I don't know what their European sales look like right now, but I suspect making a land-yacht would limit their potential audience a bit. ;)

Re: Tesla Was Cash Flow Positive Last Week, CEO Musk Says

#133

Post by jlgreco »

calinet6 wrote: post #118
el_cuadrado wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is assuming BMW et all stop any innovation. But they won't. They will offer an electric vehicle the moment it becomes feasible (and I am sorry but 200 miles range is still an exciting and expensive toy).

This is like saying that Sony can make an mp3 player, so the iPod isn't competitive in that market. Or that a 5GB iPod won't hold enough music, so it's just an expensive toy. Within 5-10 years the battery problem will improve, especially if there is demand. This is technology, not automotive development. We're not in Detroit anymore. They're in a different class. Tesla is set up to do it right from the start at a muc…

"No petrol. Less range than an M5. Lame."

Re: Tesla Was Cash Flow Positive Last Week, CEO Musk Says

#134

Post by nicholassmith »

patrickgzill wrote: post #79
nicholassmith wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Governments for the most part can take long term(ish) views on things, whereas other investors might be more bullish about seeing a return a lot quicker, for better or for worse. Even traditional bank based investment wouldn't have worked, so it's unlikely something like Tesla would be able to get off the ground and get running. If Tesla does succeed the US Government gets a nice feather in the cap as well, if it goe…

Note that funding for such things used to come from individuals who could easily buy shares. Univac for instance, started in just this way, selling shares for a few dollars apiece. In these times, however, lawyers and government have strangled such bootstrap methods. Whether Tesla is a success or not, that the govt was needed indicates a failure in some other part of the system.

I'd say it doesn't necessarily indicate failure in part of the system, just a significantly different set of priorities for investors and the global economy. Investors seem in general more interested in quick returns (there's exceptions, Amazon for instance), rather than putting money in for a slow burn and contributing toward a company.

This isn't necessarily just down to investors being money machines, but in part due to the fact that the global economy is improving but still massively fragile, even if that $500m was split 5 ways, you'd have to convince an investor that $100m in a business that could go belly up is a safe bet, even though the economy could rapidly go wrong and ruin luxury items like electric cars.

Plus lets be honest, if you play it on the investment game there's every risk people will buy in, get cold feet and dump the stock pretty quick, ruining confidence in the business and creating a negative public perception.

I will tack on at the end, I'm not an economist so I could be way, way off base.

Re: Tesla Was Cash Flow Positive Last Week, CEO Musk Says

#135

Post by jbooth »

temphn wrote: post #87
stephenhuey wrote: post #5

Great news! Here's hoping they're able to place superchargers across the country within a year as planned. As much as one part of me wants to see Elon Musk succeed just to prove Romney wrong for calling Tesla a loser, it's more important to see Tesla do well for the benefits we may reap from companies like this trying to make better solutions and provide excellent competition to the status quo. That being said, I'm f…

I would argue it is possible to believe both that Tesla is a great company and that Romney was generally right in that many of the green investments have indeed been losers (Solyndra, A123, Beacon Power, Abound Solar, ...). Lest we forget, Romney is/was a pretty great investor and entrepreneur himself, just like Elon Musk. It's unfortunate that Romney included Tesla in his list of green losers - he did start this fig…

I don't think Romney was necessarily giving his honest opinion on Tesla. He was running for president and environmentalists = hippie communists, so of course he's going to publicly hate on Tesla.

Comparing strategic DOE loans in energy to Stalin and Mao is going a bit far, btw.

Re: Tesla Was Cash Flow Positive Last Week, CEO Musk Says

#136

Post by jlgreco »

omni wrote: post #114
w1ntermute wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The range on the top-of-the-line Model S is 300, not 200, miles. And with Superchargers, it's no longer just a toy.

In the very limited areas where there is currently Supercharger coverage. Also, 30 minutes for a charge isn't exactly fast.

Considering 300 miles will take 4+ hours, 30 minutes for a refuel/bathroom/coffee break is hardly a deal-breaker. If you are not making a long trip, then keeping the car topped off in your garage should take care of most charging needs.

Re: Tesla Was Cash Flow Positive Last Week, CEO Musk Says

#137

Post by ikono »

temphn wrote: post #124
ikono wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't really think you can evaluate government loans the same way you would as a private investor. The federal government has defacto senior equity in every company that is incorporated and/or operates in the US. As a private investor the only upside you get from a loan is the interest. It's not even entirely fair to use a VC type model here as the government will also reap rewards from companies that indirectly be…

I don't really think you can evaluate government loans the same way you would as a private investor. So, there are different ways to isolate a core philosophical disagreement but I think this may be one of them. In a different context you will hear people say that "the government is not a household" because the USG can print money. OK, so call that one point of view. Another point of view looks at the largest and mos…

I certainly understand where you're coming from but obviously disagree at least partially.

There is a difference between saying that the government should invest in and fund all companies and saying that there are cases where the free market will not act in the national best interest on it's own and the government can. The underlying issue here is that oil is subsidized in the US. It's not just the tax benefits to oil companies, it's all the military spending required to maintain undisrupted oil flow from the most unstable regions in the world. We've gotten to the point where we can't just stop cold turkey; so you've got to invest some money to clean up a mess made in the past. I'd love to get to the point where all our energy choices were on a level playing field so the free market could do the work but that just doesn't seem plausible today.

It's cliche at this point, but the space program and DARPA/ARPA investments led to a lot of the technology that enabled the formation and/or success of companies like Apple and Google.

This is off topic but with regard to your some of your other points, it's completely true that the federal government doesn't have to treat it's debt the same way a household does. That doesn't mean it should spend as much as it wants, but it does mean that it can spend a little more than it brings in forever. By senior equity I meant that the government's claims to profits(taxes) are senior to other equity holders.

Re: Tesla Was Cash Flow Positive Last Week, CEO Musk Says

#138

Post by saraid216 »

Jach wrote: post #108
temphn wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would argue it is possible to believe both that Tesla is a great company and that Romney was generally right in that many of the green investments have indeed been losers (Solyndra, A123, Beacon Power, Abound Solar, ...). Lest we forget, Romney is/was a pretty great investor and entrepreneur himself, just like Elon Musk. It's unfortunate that Romney included Tesla in his list of green losers - he did start this fig…

I've heard two lines of reasoning used to justify those and similar expenses: 1. The government, which can be considered as a sovereign corporation, has a moral obligation to run at a loss because certain ventures are "inherently unprofitable" 2. If Tesla is a big success, the tax revenues from the increased capital in the market (directly from Tesla itself but also all the things it influences) will pay for the loss…

Argument 2 seems to basically be, "The government was the original venture capitalist."

Re: Tesla Was Cash Flow Positive Last Week, CEO Musk Says

#139

Post by blueprint »

jlgreco wrote: post #99
yid wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Great comment, thank you. I'd just like to add that the "frunk" isn't new -- I've been stashing my gym bag in my Porsche 911's frunk for years (it's a rear-engined car). Edit: While I absolutely live the Model S, I can assure you that exceeding stalwarts of the 5-series category, like the BMW M5, will not be as easy to disrupt as the market the Model S aims for.

Does Porsche call it a "frunk" too? I can't stand that word, it's cute, but awful. Sounds like a word I might use to describe a particularly pungent cheese.

Fragrant + funk?

Re: Tesla Was Cash Flow Positive Last Week, CEO Musk Says

#140

Post by njr123 »

endersshadow wrote: post #41
jervisfm wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is the difference between the two ? Don't you need to have a net positive flow in order to be profitable ?

Great question! The answer is a resounding no! Also, just because you're profitable doesn't mean you have a positive cash flow! Profit is what's called Net Income (for argument's sake, let's do EBIT--Earnings Before Income Taxes). Cash flow is simply your delta in cash from one period to the next. Lots of things go into net income, but essentially it's revenue minus costs. Because of GAAP (Generally Accepted Accounti…

Isn't EBIT 'Income before interest and taxes'?
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