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Instead of banning AI, I made a classroom contract with my students

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Re: Instead of banning AI, I made a classroom contract with my students

#31

Post by marginalia_nu »

_aavaa_ wrote: post #28
marginalia_nu wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No you kinda need to actually write the thing yourself. It's the struggle of writing that is the entire point, going through that is what teaches you the material. Any time you reach for AI to make it easier, you're missing out on understanding and retention. If you cannot express the thing in your own words, then you do not understand it. Just as you don't learn anything by copying someone else's homework, or expand…

> You need to hand it in so that the teacher understand where to put in more effort, but if it wasn't for that need, they'd probably have you throw it away after writing it. I am not sure how your literature classes went, but all of my essays were graded and feedback was provided to me specifically so I can get better. Perhaps my previously reply was too long winded, but feedback on your essay on how to improve it is…

Sure, let's say you used AI to correct your mistakes before you submitted it, now you can't get that feedback, and again, you're missing out on learning.

Re: Instead of banning AI, I made a classroom contract with my students

#32

Post by operatingthetan »

FloorEgg wrote: post #29
operatingthetan wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Truisms fail when you get to the edge cases. This is well known and you aren't pointing out some massive flaw in their reasoning when it comes comes to classroom AI use.

They weren't responding directly to classroom AI use, they were responding to the parent comment making a general claim about moderation - which included moderation of using Tiktok. My immediate thought was "Tiktok is like meth", would you advocate for moderation of meth? So I agree with the comment. It was appropriately placed and a valid point. Moderation is key for many things, but there are exceptions. Things tha…

>"Tiktok is like meth", would you advocate for moderation of meth?

This is an absurd statement. If someone is trying to talk about the middle cases, redirecting the conversation to the edge in order to dismiss their general comment is not appropriate.

'Edge cases exist' is not a lesson most people here need to hear.

Re: Instead of banning AI, I made a classroom contract with my students

#33

Post by _aavaa_ »

marginalia_nu wrote: post #31
_aavaa_ wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You need to hand it in so that the teacher understand where to put in more effort, but if it wasn't for that need, they'd probably have you throw it away after writing it. I am not sure how your literature classes went, but all of my essays were graded and feedback was provided to me specifically so I can get better. Perhaps my previously reply was too long winded, but feedback on your essay on how to improve it is…

Sure, let's say you used AI to correct your mistakes before you submitted it, now you can't get that feedback, and again, you're missing out on learning.

Why would I be missing out on learning? If I want to improve my writing, why does it matter that if it’s Word, ChatGPT, or a teaching telling me that my spelling is wrong? Or that I keep making comma splice errors? Or that I have run on sentences?

Re: Instead of banning AI, I made a classroom contract with my students

#34

Post by breezybottom »

Aboutplants wrote: post #11

The older I get the more I realize “moderation in everything” is the key to success and happiness. Moderation in the sense of using or consuming something to only a certain degree. In this case, education, the answer is in the middle. It’s exploring and utilizing new tools while ensuring the base foundation of education. It’s really simple. Apply “moderation” to nearly any facet of your life and it’s probably the cor…

This is called the golden mean fallacy.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_to_moderation

https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/logicalfallacies/Argumen...

What I've found as I get older is that when someone says "It’s really simple," that's a good sign it isn't.

Re: Instead of banning AI, I made a classroom contract with my students

#35

Post by FloorEgg »

Aurornis wrote: post #14
tonymet wrote: post #6

Instruction needs to shift to accommodate AI rather than preventing it from being used to complete assignments and tests. Assignments and tests were always lossy, and over time more cheating crept in. Instruction should shift to benchmarking productive output, strategic thinking and group collaboration. Similar to labs where you are tested on completing an experiment or a project with artifacts. Or an MBA program wit…

This argument has been beaten to death before AI: Ever since calculators were able to do math, students have been wondering why they need to learn how to do all of this math manually when they could get the same answer from a calculator. The reasons become more obvious only when you get deeper into a field where the math gets too complex to get a simple answer out of a calculator. If you never learned the basic conce…

What is your opinion on using an LLM to provide immediate feedback/grading at scale such that students have to muster their own answers but can check them quickly, compressing the feedback loop and allowing for more iterations?

Students still have to muster their own answers, but the LLM is used to minimize the confusion or uncertainty about the quality of the answer and the time to wait for that clarity.

My understanding is decades of research long before AI has shown the benefit of timely constructive feedback on the learning process. Why aren't all educators tripping over themselves to use LLMs to maximize access to timely constructive feedback?

Re: Instead of banning AI, I made a classroom contract with my students

#36

Post by marginalia_nu »

_aavaa_ wrote: post #33
marginalia_nu wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, let's say you used AI to correct your mistakes before you submitted it, now you can't get that feedback, and again, you're missing out on learning.

Why would I be missing out on learning? If I want to improve my writing, why does it matter that if it’s Word, ChatGPT, or a teaching telling me that my spelling is wrong? Or that I keep making comma splice errors? Or that I have run on sentences?

Your teacher needs to understand your level to provide you with further instruction that is suitable for your level. If you show them what ChatGPT wrote, then they're working completely blind, and the education is equivalent to watching a series of youtube lectures.

Not that it's impossible to learn a subject that way, it just requires extremely self-motivated students.

Re: Instead of banning AI, I made a classroom contract with my students

#37

Post by bobsmooth »

marginalia_nu wrote: post #15
Aboutplants wrote: post #11

The older I get the more I realize “moderation in everything” is the key to success and happiness. Moderation in the sense of using or consuming something to only a certain degree. In this case, education, the answer is in the middle. It’s exploring and utilizing new tools while ensuring the base foundation of education. It’s really simple. Apply “moderation” to nearly any facet of your life and it’s probably the cor…

Moderation in fentanyl, too? Some habits are arguably just vices, that have few justifiable middle grounds.

Fentanyl is used in hospitals for pain management, so yes.

Re: Instead of banning AI, I made a classroom contract with my students

#38

Post by simonw »

marginalia_nu wrote: post #21
_aavaa_ wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you think that moderation when it comes to AI in education is not correct?

Not really, at least not without restructuring the educational system completely. AI really isn't a skill that needs to be taught, like adults didn't need to take a semester in AI-usage, so why should children need such a thing? Besides, it interferes with how we teach, which is done by having students write things in their own words (which is just "that which I can't explain, I don't understand", instrumentalized).…

"AI really isn't a skill that needs to be taught"

At this point that's like saying Microsoft Excel isn't a skill that needs to be taught.

None of this stuff is easy to use, or obvious. If you want to get meaningful results out of it and avoid the many, many traps then there is an absolute ton you need to learn.

In the context of this conversation, the skill that needs to be learned is how to use AI to learn effectively. That gets into pedagogy and personal learning styles and self-discipline and all sorts of other extremely gnarly areas.

Re: Instead of banning AI, I made a classroom contract with my students

#39

Post by operatingthetan »

simonw wrote: post #38
marginalia_nu wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not really, at least not without restructuring the educational system completely. AI really isn't a skill that needs to be taught, like adults didn't need to take a semester in AI-usage, so why should children need such a thing? Besides, it interferes with how we teach, which is done by having students write things in their own words (which is just "that which I can't explain, I don't understand", instrumentalized).…

"AI really isn't a skill that needs to be taught" At this point that's like saying Microsoft Excel isn't a skill that needs to be taught. None of this stuff is easy to use, or obvious. If you want to get meaningful results out of it and avoid the many, many traps then there is an absolute ton you need to learn. In the context of this conversation, the skill that needs to be learned is how to use AI to learn effective…

Isn't the industry's idea that 'prompt engineering' is over and anyone can use this stuff effectively?

There seems to be a literal trap where people are too trusting of the LLM and take its word on code or whatever is being offered instead of reading it themselves.

In the context of the classroom this means teaching discernment more than ever.

Re: Instead of banning AI, I made a classroom contract with my students

#40

Post by marginalia_nu »

operatingthetan wrote: post #32
FloorEgg wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They weren't responding directly to classroom AI use, they were responding to the parent comment making a general claim about moderation - which included moderation of using Tiktok. My immediate thought was "Tiktok is like meth", would you advocate for moderation of meth? So I agree with the comment. It was appropriately placed and a valid point. Moderation is key for many things, but there are exceptions. Things tha…

>"Tiktok is like meth", would you advocate for moderation of meth? This is an absurd statement. If someone is trying to talk about the middle cases, redirecting the conversation to the edge in order to dismiss their general comment is not appropriate. 'Edge cases exist' is not a lesson most people here need to hear.

I'm not even sure it's demonstrable that all things are good in moderation. There is a very large class of things that simply aren't good in moderation.

This leaves it generously a thought teminating cliche devoid of meaning, certainly nothing you should be making decisions off.

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