Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

A Special Wireless-Free Nikon Camera Is Publicly Available for the First Time

petapixel.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

51–60 of 76 posts

Re: A Special Wireless-Free Nikon Camera Is Publicly Available for the First Time

#51

Post by someonebaggy »

RobotToaster wrote: post #49
someonebaggy wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Getting a GPS fix from the satellites alone with no internet connection or stored data takes a few hours, not seconds. First you have to listen to the very slow data channel that tells you where the satellites are that takes a few hours to transmit the complete set before repeating.

I'm no expert on GPS, but once you have the stored data it's good for several days isn't it? So after the first fix it shouldn't be too onerous.

That works for phones (and you can download it from the internet if out of date). It doesn't work for cameras which are usually turned off until you want to take pictures.

Re: A Special Wireless-Free Nikon Camera Is Publicly Available for the First Time

#52

Post by giva »

walrus01 wrote: post #4

I understand it's probably because the GPS functionality is integrated into the same RF chipset that's handling wifi/bluetooth, but it would be possible to make a "no transmit capability" camera that still has GPS metadata functionality, with GPS receiver chip and an antenna tuned for 1400-1600 MHz, since ordinary consumer grade GPS is a receive-only technology. But that would still possibly present a problem for ser…

What is the point? As long as your camera has a decent clock, you just need to record a gpx during your shooting session with an external device and you can add geolocation after you download your pictures. IIRC Darktable can do that.

Re: A Special Wireless-Free Nikon Camera Is Publicly Available for the First Time

#53

Post by mrob »

pixelpoet wrote: post #48

"Wireless-free" is such a ridiculous designation; you have a double negation and it still doesn't mean what you might expect (that it's wired).

I correctly expected "wireless-free" to mean no support for wireless connections, which to me seems the simple and obvious interpretation. It doesn't necessarily mean it's wired (data transfer could be limited to removable memory cards), but B&H says:

"The camera does still have a series of ports for physical, wired connections for data transfer and power supply"

Re: A Special Wireless-Free Nikon Camera Is Publicly Available for the First Time

#54

Post by technothrasher »

pixelpoet wrote: post #48

"Wireless-free" is such a ridiculous designation; you have a double negation and it still doesn't mean what you might expect (that it's wired).

It means exactly what I expected. The wireless connectivity has been removed (for regulatory compliance in situations where wireless isn't allowed), but wired connectivity is still there.

Re: A Special Wireless-Free Nikon Camera Is Publicly Available for the First Time

#55

Post by RobotToaster »

someonebaggy wrote: post #51
RobotToaster wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm no expert on GPS, but once you have the stored data it's good for several days isn't it? So after the first fix it shouldn't be too onerous.

That works for phones (and you can download it from the internet if out of date). It doesn't work for cameras which are usually turned off until you want to take pictures.

All I know is I've never seen the GPS module for my 10+ year old Pentax k30 take more than a few minutes to get a fix after months of having the battery completely removed, and it has no network connection.

Re: A Special Wireless-Free Nikon Camera Is Publicly Available for the First Time

#56

Post by xocnad »

someonebaggy wrote: post #43
ryukoposting wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think it's impossible. We aren't talking RTK here, you should be able to get a usable fix quickly. You also have some other advantages. For starters, the GPS coordinate doesn't need to be taken at the exact instant the photo is taken. If it takes a second to get the coordinate, that can be done in the background while the photographer continues to do their thing. Another advantage is that people never hold th…

Getting a GPS fix from the satellites alone with no internet connection or stored data takes a few hours, not seconds. First you have to listen to the very slow data channel that tells you where the satellites are that takes a few hours to transmit the complete set before repeating.

This does not jibe with my experience with my long-in-the-tooth Garmin when it cannot connect to my phone and has been recharged after a total power down. It can take minutes but not hours.

Re: A Special Wireless-Free Nikon Camera Is Publicly Available for the First Time

#57

Post by peterus »

someonebaggy wrote: post #43
ryukoposting wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think it's impossible. We aren't talking RTK here, you should be able to get a usable fix quickly. You also have some other advantages. For starters, the GPS coordinate doesn't need to be taken at the exact instant the photo is taken. If it takes a second to get the coordinate, that can be done in the background while the photographer continues to do their thing. Another advantage is that people never hold th…

Getting a GPS fix from the satellites alone with no internet connection or stored data takes a few hours, not seconds. First you have to listen to the very slow data channel that tells you where the satellites are that takes a few hours to transmit the complete set before repeating.

No it doesn't, the time to first fix from cold start of modern GNSS receivers is in seconds (24s on the NEO M9N). Assisted GNSS using data from the internet reduces that to under 2 seconds (see https://content.u-blox.com/sites/default/files/NEO-M9N-00B_D...). Of course this can change based on the GNSS environment.

Even in the worst case the almanac (the data that is streamed at 50 bits/second) repeats every 12.5 minutes not hours.

Re: A Special Wireless-Free Nikon Camera Is Publicly Available for the First Time

#58

Post by throw0101a »

someonebaggy wrote: post #43
ryukoposting wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think it's impossible. We aren't talking RTK here, you should be able to get a usable fix quickly. You also have some other advantages. For starters, the GPS coordinate doesn't need to be taken at the exact instant the photo is taken. If it takes a second to get the coordinate, that can be done in the background while the photographer continues to do their thing. Another advantage is that people never hold th…

Getting a GPS fix from the satellites alone with no internet connection or stored data takes a few hours, not seconds. First you have to listen to the very slow data channel that tells you where the satellites are that takes a few hours to transmit the complete set before repeating.

> Getting a GPS fix from the satellites alone with no internet connection or stored data takes a few hours, not seconds.

It takes less than 15 minutes (in the worst case):

> The receiver is missing or has inaccurate estimates of its position, velocity, the time, or the visibility of any of the GPS satellites. As such, the receiver must systematically search for all possible satellites. After acquiring a satellite signal, the receiver can begin to obtain approximate information on all the other satellites, called the almanac. This almanac is transmitted repeatedly over 12.5 minutes. Almanac data can be received from any of the GPS satellites and is considered valid for up to 180 days.

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_to_first_fix

Re: A Special Wireless-Free Nikon Camera Is Publicly Available for the First Time

#59

Post by [deleted] »

tujux wrote: post #15

>Nikon tells PetaPixel that this is to evaluate potential market demand for similar products moving forward. Yes, evaluate market demand by making it more expensive and doing 0 marketing. /s Am I crazy in thinking that doing it this way is close to meaningless?

[deleted]

Re: A Special Wireless-Free Nikon Camera Is Publicly Available for the First Time

#60

Post by throw0101a »

someonebaggy wrote: post #51
RobotToaster wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm no expert on GPS, but once you have the stored data it's good for several days isn't it? So after the first fix it shouldn't be too onerous.

That works for phones (and you can download it from the internet if out of date). It doesn't work for cameras which are usually turned off until you want to take pictures.

> It doesn't work for cameras which are usually turned off until you want to take pictures.

The GPS almanac is valid for 180 days, so if you can save it (it's 15000 bits, ~1.8 kB), and keep time within ±20s and assuming a position of ±100km of your last fix, you can do a "warm" start with-in a minute:

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_to_first_fix

A completely cold start takes less than 15 minutes.

And yes, cameras are usually turned off, but they do still trickle some power to keep the on-board clock going: so as long as you use your camera once every six months, and in the same city, there's a good chance you'll get a quick fix.

Post reply on HN