Tesla Was Cash Flow Positive Last Week, CEO Musk Says • Hacker News Board

Re: Tesla Was Cash Flow Positive Last Week, CEO Musk Says

#71

Post by dkokelley » Wed, Dec 05, 2012, 5:15 PM UTC

Sumaso wrote: post #62

thematt wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How about a third option? The government doesn't bet on anybody and let's the market sort out the winners.

Government doesn't bet than society as a whole loses out. Ideally your government should be attempting to maximize everyone's utility (read:society). Private corporations are attempting to maximize their utility (In the case of modern economies: money). Having an organization giving money to projects that are a net monetary loss, but provide a social benefit is the core reason why we have a government in the first pl…

I disagree. The core function of government is to provide a social order. Police enforce rule of law, and legislatures write the law. Military protects our sovereignty against outsiders, and citizens pay taxes for these benefits. While military and police spending fit your description (they are not necessarily profitable but provide a social benefit), I argue that social order is the primary function of government.

In the U.S.'s case, our government happens to do much more than this, but this is not the core of why government exists.

Re: Tesla Was Cash Flow Positive Last Week, CEO Musk Says

#72

Post by cadlin » Wed, Dec 05, 2012, 5:19 PM UTC

twoodfin wrote: post #53

nicholassmith wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd say partially it's new and sexy, but I imagine the suggested long term is it could help show America as a leader in green tech which should help attract outside investment into other green tech ventures, helping to kickstart a new economic driver. What Tesla is doing is creating an entire new venture from scratch from nothing, for them to hit profitability and make any solid return is likely to take a decade. VCs…

So the difference in "sexy" between Ford making a few hundred thousand electric cars and Tesla making a few hundred thousand electric cars is worth risking half a billion dollars of the taxpayers' money?

Ford received a loan that was an order of magnitude larger than what Tesla received. You're arguing from your biases and not from facts.

Re: Tesla Was Cash Flow Positive Last Week, CEO Musk Says

#73

Post by malyk » Wed, Dec 05, 2012, 5:22 PM UTC

xxpor wrote: post #68

tjic wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nothing except my own ethics. I don't like to take money from people who haven't consented to hand it over. Smells too much like theft. #dont_be_evil

Hope you don't drive anywhere.

Or do basically anything at all, really.

Re: Tesla Was Cash Flow Positive Last Week, CEO Musk Says

#74

Post by king_magic » Wed, Dec 05, 2012, 5:25 PM UTC

nathan_long wrote: post #65

king_magic wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does the market always pick the highest quality of winners? I really don't think it does. I'm not saying government does either - TBH I don't really have faith in either the market or the government to accurately pick winners.

Define "highest quality". I'd say "of most utility to the largest number of people." By that metric, the market picks the highest quality of winner pretty much by definition. Exceptions I can think of are cases where individuals don't have enough info to decide (eg, a product will cause cancer, but the company can get rich before consumers find out) and Tragedy of the Commons issues (eg, every individual has incentiv…

> By that metric, the market picks the highest quality of winner pretty much by definition.

I dunno, Windows and Internet Explorer has been the "winner" for the past few decades ;-) By the metric you mention ("of most utility to the largest number of people."), yes, they are "high quality". By many other metrics, they are not the highest quality products.

Jokes aside, I absolutely want the market involved as well. I think the market is fairly efficient, but it has it's downsides (e.g., the great patent wars - I'd hardly call that market efficiency).

I don't think the government has all the answers - but I don't think the market does either.

Re: Tesla Was Cash Flow Positive Last Week, CEO Musk Says

#75

Post by jbooth » Wed, Dec 05, 2012, 5:29 PM UTC

twoodfin wrote: post #64

jbooth wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The market's an optimization system, it's not some religious object with holy precepts. Sometimes you need to give optimization systems a hint.

The government has dozens of ways to structure incentives without making half billion dollar investments in particular companies. Telecom reform in 1996, for example, was a huge boon for the internet and related industries, and it didn't require picking one specific company over another.

Tesla wasn't picked over another company, they were the only company trying this.

The DOE gives all kinds of grants and loans to innovative energy companies because it's seen as a national security issue.

Re: Tesla Was Cash Flow Positive Last Week, CEO Musk Says

#76

Post by Retric » Wed, Dec 05, 2012, 5:29 PM UTC

dkokelley wrote: post #71

Sumaso wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Government doesn't bet than society as a whole loses out. Ideally your government should be attempting to maximize everyone's utility (read:society). Private corporations are attempting to maximize their utility (In the case of modern economies: money). Having an organization giving money to projects that are a net monetary loss, but provide a social benefit is the core reason why we have a government in the first pl…

I disagree. The core function of government is to provide a social order. Police enforce rule of law, and legislatures write the law. Military protects our sovereignty against outsiders, and citizens pay taxes for these benefits. While military and police spending fit your description (they are not necessarily profitable but provide a social benefit), I argue that social order is the primary function of government. I…

Governments have been involved in 'public works' for at least the last 10,000 years. Without it you end up with a weaker society with a weaker military which is then easy pray to invaders.

It may have started out as roads, bridges, defensive structures, and irrigation systems. But the CDC is well within that domain.

Re: Tesla Was Cash Flow Positive Last Week, CEO Musk Says

#77

Post by [deleted] » Wed, Dec 05, 2012, 5:36 PM UTC

dkokelley wrote: post #71

Sumaso wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Government doesn't bet than society as a whole loses out. Ideally your government should be attempting to maximize everyone's utility (read:society). Private corporations are attempting to maximize their utility (In the case of modern economies: money). Having an organization giving money to projects that are a net monetary loss, but provide a social benefit is the core reason why we have a government in the first pl…

I disagree. The core function of government is to provide a social order. Police enforce rule of law, and legislatures write the law. Military protects our sovereignty against outsiders, and citizens pay taxes for these benefits. While military and police spending fit your description (they are not necessarily profitable but provide a social benefit), I argue that social order is the primary function of government. I…

[deleted]

Re: Tesla Was Cash Flow Positive Last Week, CEO Musk Says

#78

Post by enraged_camel » Wed, Dec 05, 2012, 5:36 PM UTC

dkokelley wrote: post #71

Sumaso wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Government doesn't bet than society as a whole loses out. Ideally your government should be attempting to maximize everyone's utility (read:society). Private corporations are attempting to maximize their utility (In the case of modern economies: money). Having an organization giving money to projects that are a net monetary loss, but provide a social benefit is the core reason why we have a government in the first pl…

I disagree. The core function of government is to provide a social order. Police enforce rule of law, and legislatures write the law. Military protects our sovereignty against outsiders, and citizens pay taxes for these benefits. While military and police spending fit your description (they are not necessarily profitable but provide a social benefit), I argue that social order is the primary function of government. I…

Your argument is flawed and this can be demonstrated with countless examples. For example, it is difficult to have social order when your elderly and your poor are dying on the streets. This is why we have welfare and social security.

Re: Tesla Was Cash Flow Positive Last Week, CEO Musk Says

#79

Post by patrickgzill » Wed, Dec 05, 2012, 5:41 PM UTC

nicholassmith wrote: post #23

twoodfin wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just for future reference, what's the benchmark for calling Romney's prediction accurate? Do they have to liquidate or is it enough that they fail to be able to continue to independently deliver cars to the market? I'd love it if Tesla would succeed sheerly because their product seems so slick, but I agree with Romney that the government is a lousy institution to be picking companies that "should" get half-billion do…

Governments for the most part can take long term(ish) views on things, whereas other investors might be more bullish about seeing a return a lot quicker, for better or for worse. Even traditional bank based investment wouldn't have worked, so it's unlikely something like Tesla would be able to get off the ground and get running. If Tesla does succeed the US Government gets a nice feather in the cap as well, if it goe…

Note that funding for such things used to come from individuals who could easily buy shares.

Univac for instance, started in just this way, selling shares for a few dollars apiece.

In these times, however, lawyers and government have strangled such bootstrap methods.

Whether Tesla is a success or not, that the govt was needed indicates a failure in some other part of the system.

Re: Tesla Was Cash Flow Positive Last Week, CEO Musk Says

#80

Post by ShawnBird » Wed, Dec 05, 2012, 5:41 PM UTC

tjic wrote: post #57

rohansingh wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nothing stopping you from doing a venture that takes advantage of federal grants and tax incentives.

Nothing except my own ethics. I don't like to take money from people who haven't consented to hand it over. Smells too much like theft. #dont_be_evil

Well most banks give out loans without the consent of their members on a per loan basis. Taxes are similar, people agree to pay taxes but they don't have a say on a per loan basis of what is done with those funds.