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24-bit/192kHz music downloads and why they make no sense (2012)

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Re: 24-bit/192kHz music downloads and why they make no sense (2012)

#231
post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Nobody uses 32 bit float for recording Yes they do, almost all high end field recorders used for film work are 32-bits now and have been for much of the last decade, often with some fancy preamp integration so that there is no expertise required for gain staging the recording. (I believe the implementations use a second matched 24bit ADC with 48 dB less gain in front of it). The result obviously doesn't have a nois…

There are precisely zero 32 bit ADCs in existence. There are ADCs that will provide 32 bits per sample but that's entirely different. Current technology limits the bit depth to 18-22 bits and going beyond that you'd be very quickly recording brownian (atomic) noise anyway. The point about 32 bit float is that it is a useful format for mixing, editing and general processing, so it is widely used in digital audio tools…

> There are precisely zero 32 bit ADCs in existence.

> There are ADCs that will provide 32 bits per sample but that's entirely different.

Now that requires elaboration.

There is e.g. AD's LTC2500 (https://www.analog.com/en/products/ltc2500-32.html). Not meant for audio (too slow at 32b) and not noise free, but it's a bona-fide 32b ADC.

Now there might be no ADC which provides 32b wide noise-free samples at sample rates needed for audio and given the absurdly low level of a LSB signal that might be as infeasible as it would be pointless, but that's a bit of a different statement.

Re: 24-bit/192kHz music downloads and why they make no sense (2012)

#232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are precisely zero 32 bit ADCs in existence. There are ADCs that will provide 32 bits per sample but that's entirely different. Current technology limits the bit depth to 18-22 bits and going beyond that you'd be very quickly recording brownian (atomic) noise anyway. The point about 32 bit float is that it is a useful format for mixing, editing and general processing, so it is widely used in digital audio tools…

Rode NT1-A 5th gen microphone claims 32-bit float output, insisting it will not clip peaks so maybe they do sample at 24 bit at a well chosen gain level and then convert to 32 bit float, with the max 24 bit value being above 1.0 float or as GP said, use two separate ADCs at two different gains and combine their output

> use two separate ADCs at two different gains and combine their output

That's what could be done if ADCs were perfectly linear and noise free and limited only by their bit-width. Sadly, they are not. The non-linearity one can in theory measure and correct for, but the noise can be corrected for only by oversampling. And then you might as well use a single ADC of lesser bit width and higher sampling rate.

Re: 24-bit/192kHz music downloads and why they make no sense (2012)

#233

Music producer here. High resolution audio is useful for editing and anywhere there might be downstream processing or format conversion that may or may not be high quality, let alone lossless. The article covers that pretty well. However, the article claims that the final distribution doesn’t need to have a bit depth of more than 16. That does not match my experience. I can tell the difference between my renders that…

thermal noise allows about 18-22 bits of real precision at audio level voltages, so it's plausible that 16 bit is somewhat limiting

What? You still operate your ADCs without active cooling?

I'm writing in jest, but long time ago, -hp- used actively cooled FETs (not a very popular approach today as that caused problems with condensation and we have better FETs now).

Re: 24-bit/192kHz music downloads and why they make no sense (2012)

#234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Rode NT1-A 5th gen microphone claims 32-bit float output, insisting it will not clip peaks so maybe they do sample at 24 bit at a well chosen gain level and then convert to 32 bit float, with the max 24 bit value being above 1.0 float or as GP said, use two separate ADCs at two different gains and combine their output

> use two separate ADCs at two different gains and combine their output That's what could be done if ADCs were perfectly linear and noise free and limited only by their bit-width. Sadly, they are not. The non-linearity one can in theory measure and correct for, but the noise can be corrected for only by oversampling. And then you might as well use a single ADC of lesser bit width and higher sampling rate.

this uses 2 ADCs:

https://tascam.jp/int/feature/32-bit_float

Re: 24-bit/192kHz music downloads and why they make no sense (2012)

#235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is easy to disprove by downsampling from a 24/192 source to 16/44.1 Even if the downsampling is (close to) ideal there are obvious differences. In fact if you can't hear the difference between 24/192 and 16/44.1 you shouldn't be working in audio. (Doesn't apply to consumers. Does apply to musicians and engineers.) It's like being colour blind. And if you don't understand the math behind quantisation, you shouldn…

But surely the difference is 16 vs 24 and nothing to do with the sample rate?

The larger problem with 44.1 is

But it depends what you're sourcing from. If you source 44.1 then you will have a worse recording if you change it to 192. If you source at 48k then you just waste samples. If you’re recording analog inputs at 192k in a crappy adc then you will have a worse outcome than a good adc at 48k (or 44.1k)

Same with bit depth - the adc is far more important.

Re: 24-bit/192kHz music downloads and why they make no sense (2012)

#236
No mention of Toole? Obligatory considering the subject, even if it's about acoustics and not digital audio:

https://www.routledge.com/Sound-Reproduction-The-Acoustics-a...

And a talk by the author covering some of the material for those who prefer that: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zrpUDuUtxPM

Re: 24-bit/192kHz music downloads and why they make no sense (2012)

#237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Understand the physical limits of human senses and perceptions to help inoculate yourself against outright scams and grifts Also understand that while there is an upper limit, we are all different within that. I can hear the difference between 128Kbps and FLAC, at least for some content, but not 256Kbps, maybe not 192. For some content (spoken word etc.), 64Kbps, sometimes less, is perfectly acceptable (to me). The…

> I can hear the difference between 128Kbps and FLAC You've established this with double bind testing, correct?

Some time ago, yes. For 128 and there-about & below, not 192+ hence I'm less certain about that (but I'm pretty sure I wouldn't be able to tell the difference).

Not recently, so it is possible that improvements in encoding methods, and changes in my ears, could mean that I'd get a different result now.

Re: 24-bit/192kHz music downloads and why they make no sense (2012)

#238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> use two separate ADCs at two different gains and combine their output That's what could be done if ADCs were perfectly linear and noise free and limited only by their bit-width. Sadly, they are not. The non-linearity one can in theory measure and correct for, but the noise can be corrected for only by oversampling. And then you might as well use a single ADC of lesser bit width and higher sampling rate.

this uses 2 ADCs: https://tascam.jp/int/feature/32-bit_float

One cannot create a noise-free, perfectly linear 32b ADC using 2 lesser ADCs as described above. That is however not needed and I suspect isn't what they are attempting.

If, say, two 24b ADC (20b noise free, non-linearity 2LSB) with one receiving the input signal with an approximate 10bit higher gain (+60dB) and one would combine their outputs with that 10b shift (and ignoring the input of the low gain path, if the signal falls below a given threshold to reduce the noise contribution of that ADC and the input of the high gain path if the signal exceeds another threshold in order to avoid clipping), then one could construct a 32b float.

This doesn't improve resolution (which arguably would be pointless) or linearity (not all that critical in audio methinks) but dynamic range, which I can see some appeal of (in extreme recording situations, say you'd want to record the breathing of a shooter followed by the gun shot -- there remains the challenge of finding a microphone capable of a 120dB range, but perhaps one could use two different ones ...).

Re: 24-bit/192kHz music downloads and why they make no sense (2012)

#239

@xiphmont also made an amazing video response to the many responses he received to this article. Using analog equipment he busts a bunch of myths and demonstrates what really happens with digital audio. https://video.xiph.org/vid2.shtml or on YT if you can't play it https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cIQ9IXSUzuM

A classic.

Re: 24-bit/192kHz music downloads and why they make no sense (2012)

#240
post #202
post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is perfect, thank you this goes straight into my long-term memory bank. On a tangent, whenever someone mentions LP sounding warmer or whatever I like to point out that I prefer wax cylinders (a.k.a. phonograph cylinders).

Those wax cylinders are a modern hack. The curved surface distorts the real artistic intent. The only way to appreciate the true beauty of sound is a the purity of soot etchings on a phonautogram.

I will add this to my repertoire :)

I had a good laugh listening to the sample at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phonautograph

The sound is very pure indeed.

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