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Great Salt Lake Tracker

growtheflowutah.org

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Re: Great Salt Lake Tracker

#31
post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There have been some ideas to do this from the Salton Sea to the Gulf of California in Mexico but that is about 125 miles and would still cost billions.

To drain the Salton Sea or replenish it? The Salton Sea was created in its present form from a man-made environmental disaster.

To replenish it. I know it was made by accident but agricultural runoff kept it from drying out. Now it is full of fertilizer and pesticide residue and the farms have gotten better at using water so less flows into the Salton Sea. As it dries up toxic dust clouds are blown over the cities nearby. California is trying to stop the dust. One idea is to fill it with sea water from the Gulf of California from Mexico.

I am not saying this is a good idea, only that it is an idea.

Re: Great Salt Lake Tracker

#32
post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Doesn’t scratch the itch, but I will concede that this is a fair point

If you want to do a megaproject, just cover a significant amount of the lake in reflective material. This will reduce evaporation, increasing the lake level. It would be very bad for the ecosystem, though, since it depends on sunlight.

Sounds like the northern part of the lake doesn't have much of an ecosystem anyway, so why not start there?

Re: Great Salt Lake Tracker

#33
I was looking at the lake water level tracker and reminiscing. I worked up at Heber City, Utah back around 1983-1984 doing seismic work. The snow and rainfall and snow-melt were creating floods all over the region. The lake was filling rapidly to historic levels.

When we moved the crew to Oregon to do a bit of work around Roseburg we drove through SLC. The runoff from some of the creeks was so high that there were sandbagged creeks flowing downhill along some of the streets directly into the lake. As we made it to the interstate to swing around the south side of the lake there was a massive effort underway to raise the Union Pacific railroad tracks above the water and to prevent the water from flooding the interstate. From memory, which may be a bit rotted over the long time period, the railroad tracks were running along what was functioning as a huge levee being constructed on the north side of the interstate. Earthmovers were scrambling everywhere. The interstate was approximately 40 feet (~12.2 m) lower than the top of the levee where the tracks were being raised. Traffic was moving carefully along this stretch. It was pretty spectacular.

I think I have some photos I took of the massive levee as I drove along that stretch and I may have some of the ballroom, the Great Saltair, which was inaccessible at the time, completely surrounded by water with only the top part of the building above water.

If anyone who was living in SLC at the time could chime in to let me know how badly my memory has served me I would appreciate it.

Once we got out of Utah we continued across Nevada and, since the entire western US was experiencing massive flooding, we had to take a long detour through a large ranch and around an isolated mountain range because an overpass over a river had washed out somewhere west of Wells, NV between there and Winnemucca. It was fantastically beautiful country. The road was unpaved and may have been a BLM road for part of the way until we connected with a paved road highway that took us back to the interstate. This detour cost us hours but the scenery made up for all of that.

I say paved only in the Lousyana sense because it was a two-lane asphalt pavement with no shoulder and minimal guardrails that snaked up the side of a large plateau. There were numerous dips and potholes in the pavement that forced you to pay attention to the road instead of enjoying the view. In Lousyana they don't bother to spend federal highway funds on interstate highway maintenance, they just buy another highway sign that says "Rough Roads Next 20 miles" and let that pass for maintenance.

About a third of the way from the top just over the crest of one of the short downhill stretches across the slope, there was a huge hole in the pavement that I hit doing about 70 in my Bronco. The jolt as my Bronco tried to jump the gap blew out both rear shocks, forcing me to replace them once I made it to Roseburg. Luckily it was a one lane wide, single hole perpendicular to the direction of travel so it didn't force a steering correction or I might've found myself needing flying lessons since the drop-off was quite sudden on one side.

That trip was pretty epic. At Denio Junction, NV, I bought gas at the small store since it was one of the last places you could gas up before crossing into Oregon. At the time and for years afterward that was the most expensive gasoline that I had ever purchased. I probably still have the trip log and receipts from that trip but I think I remember it being $3/gallon ($0.79/l), in 1983-1984. Ridiculous. I finally paid more than that for gasoline at the station on the south Rim of the Grand Canyon about 30 years later where it cost $5/gallon ($1.32/l).

Good times.

Re: Great Salt Lake Tracker

#34
post #19

THIS IS A GRIFT. Joel Ferry, the executive director of Utah's DNR retooled state laws to allow water right leasing and promoted HB187 which allows you to hold water rights without developing them. He also happens to be a large shareholder in Bear River Canal Company and has been going around quietly buying up water rights from smaller canals and municipalities. Grow The Flow is closely aligned with Great Salt Lake Ri…

Can you spell out how the grift works? All I'm understanding from your post is that wealthy people are connected to the effort.

I'm not sure if this is what they're talking about, but I've heard it said more than once that a lot of Utah politicians have conflicts of interest with respect to allowing more water to flow into the lake (ties to agriculture, etc). The situation has probably changed somewhat now that parts of the city have shelter in place orders because of toxic clouds, but people have been talking about it for decades now.

Re: Great Salt Lake Tracker

#35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the idea is a huge waste, but the Utah State Legislature already considered exactly this in 2022 (building a massive pipeline to the Pacific Ocean). https://www.sltrib.com/news/environment/2022/05/19/utah-legi... (archived non-paywall version: http://archive.today/GzuUD )

We really should just figure out how to be sustainable. I also think there is a hard reality people don't want to even consider talking about, which is the Southwest US is too overpopulated and overleveraged for the natural water resources available to it.

The southwest isn’t really over populated with people, it’s overpopulated with cows which require tremendous land and water resources.

Re: Great Salt Lake Tracker

#36
post #30

I crave an industrial megaproject to solve this. Specifically: A pipeline from the ocean. But alas, only China has a social structure capable of getting projects of this scale done anymore. So I guess I'll keep tracking the AQI and keeping my kids indoors when it's bad.

Disappointing to see you downvoted on hacker news of all places. Cmon, have some ambition. A bunch of people here have no idea how bad the water crunch is. The oogala has been overdrawn for decades, and is a major source of agriculture water for much of the west and Midwest. CO, UT, AZ, CA, NV etc all dramatically overdraw the Colorado river snopack and will have a reckoning soon enough. The west is also prone to meg…

The water crunch only seems bad because everybody is trying to maintain the status quo and it's egregiously wasted on things we dont need to. 25% of the Colorado river is used to just grow alfalfa [0]. We over subsidize corn and soy so much we have to invent uses for it. We dont need corn ethanol in our fuel and we dont need to use the precious water in the West to grow alfalfa for Saudi Arabia [1]

[0] https://coloradosun.com/2024/04/04/research-colorado-river-w...

[1] https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/in-drought-stricken-ar...

Re: Great Salt Lake Tracker

#37

I crave an industrial megaproject to solve this. Specifically: A pipeline from the ocean. But alas, only China has a social structure capable of getting projects of this scale done anymore. So I guess I'll keep tracking the AQI and keeping my kids indoors when it's bad.

The US is crisscrossed with gas and oil pipelines, many of them quite long. It’s imagination that constrains us mostly, not technology.

Imagination applies also to how we organize society and “rights” we hold over nature and natural resources. Reforming outdated water law is the true fix no pipeline needed.

Re: Great Salt Lake Tracker

#38

If you look at a satellite image of the Great Salt Lake [1], it looks like there's a digital seam/glitch between the north and the south half of the lake. In reality, a railroad was built through the middle of the lake in 1904, separating the water. The salinity of the north half has since become toxic to all organisms except some algae and cyanobacteria. [1] https://www.google.com/maps/@41.1985997,-112.4903027,20176…

Thanks for the TIL, always just assumed it was some digital artifact

Re: Great Salt Lake Tracker

#39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you spell out how the grift works? All I'm understanding from your post is that wealthy people are connected to the effort.

I'm not sure if this is what they're talking about, but I've heard it said more than once that a lot of Utah politicians have conflicts of interest with respect to allowing more water to flow into the lake (ties to agriculture, etc). The situation has probably changed somewhat now that parts of the city have shelter in place orders because of toxic clouds, but people have been talking about it for decades now.

If the politicians said they wanted to buy up water rights and not use them. and actually bought them up so they can used by their cronies, that would certainly be grift, but OP seems to be against "hold[ing] water rights without developing them", which is exactly what you have to do if you want more water to flow into the lake...

Re: Great Salt Lake Tracker

#40
post #7

I crave an industrial megaproject to solve this. Specifically: A pipeline from the ocean. But alas, only China has a social structure capable of getting projects of this scale done anymore. So I guess I'll keep tracking the AQI and keeping my kids indoors when it's bad.

> Specifically: A pipeline from the ocean. The environmental cost of building a pipeline 750 miles across the country and then expending all of the energy needed to pump that water would completely outweigh any benefits. You also don't need ocean water. Salt doesn't evaporate. It's still there. The water could be sourced from anywhere. They could just buy up water rights from farmers and other heavy users and divert…

Moving farms to next to the ocean does seem like the far superior option.
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