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CERN bids farewell to the LHC and enters Long Shutdown 3

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Re: CERN bids farewell to the LHC and enters Long Shutdown 3

#101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A non-negligible risk. More likely to get lost and drown. I wouldn't do it. But you can read about it: https://medium.com/@liboski/the-superconducting-super-collid... https://weburbanist.com/2014/09/11/the-desertron-worlds-larg...

Having spent some time as a cellular tech in Detroit, scrambling up half-wrecked stairwells in long-abandoned buildings to service the radio equipment still running on the roof, those accounts make it sound downright tame. I'd visit in a heartbeat next time I'm in DFW. The landscape is so spacious, I hesitate to call it urb-ex. Rur-ex?

Those are the above ground structures. If you want to see the SSC, that is in deep underground flooded tunnels.

Re: CERN bids farewell to the LHC and enters Long Shutdown 3

#102
post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am also a former CERN scientist, and while I agree with the fact that recent papers are more and more a box-checking exercise with low value, I'm concerned on how Hossenfelder misrepresent the causes of that and the situation. You say yourself that this situation can be simply an effect due to the experiment lifetime, and I also think it's a reasonable hypothesis. What gives me pause with Hossenfelder is that she j…

Hossenfelder is falling into the same trap most people who make their living off social media do. Lots of money can be made with conspiracies and controversies, much more than with boring facts. This just seems to creep up over time on most of these people. Jordan Peterson fell into the same trap. He used to have pretty interesting insights but then he developed a huge loyal following and over time he felt like he kn…

While I agree, it is worth adding that it is not a "natural consequence". Other than them have similar following and yet don't fall into that trap.

People who have fallen into that trap are not "average people" who are "victim of social media mechanism": their actions were and are still the result of their choices, and they still have a brain that should allow them to step back and see what they are doing. The fact that they felt into that trap tells us something about their qualities: they are poor analysts and we should not give them much credits (the fact they did decent analyses at first does not exclude the fact that they are poor analysts, just that they managed to get decent results despite being badly equipped for it).

Re: CERN bids farewell to the LHC and enters Long Shutdown 3

#103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not a physicist, but isn’t the issue here that these are experiments ? Failure to find a potential particle at a predicted energy shouldn’t be seen as ‘nothing to show’ or a failure. I presume it tells us something really valuable- if perhaps disappointing

I know what you mean. I was recently at lunch at a (non-physics) tech conference and an ex-physicist (now a systems developer) sitting next to me responded the same. I think (physicists in the room, please correct me if I'm making assumptions here) this is a classic "falsification" trap. Just because you can propose a hypothesis / prediction that is "falsiable" doesn't make it a worthwhile one to pursue. "Hypotheses"…

> Just because you can propose a hypothesis / prediction that is "falsiable" doesn't make it a worthwhile one to pursue. "Hypotheses" are dime a dozen.

I think there is two things: 1. indeed all falsifiable hypothesis are not worth pursuing (for example, the hypothesis of the existence of a teapot in a 1 km2 area on the surface of Mars is technically falsifiable, you can scan and scan the region for it. But it is a poor usage of time and money) 2. some falsifiable hypothesis are really useful, but when the conclusion is "nope", then it looks like we wasted time and money while in fact we did not (and I think it's what the previous comment is saying).

For the LHC, I think it is very very hard to pretend it was a waste of money. Scanning this energy region was a very good move. It was the obvious next low hanging apple. What else could physicists have done that would have been as informative than that for the same amount of money? Sure, we did not find much (well, we found the Higgs boson, which is a huge discovery in itself), so it is "emotionally" disappointing, and "marketingly" bad luck (the public can think it was useless). But the progress of our understanding of how things work increased a lot thanks to it: before it, we just had no idea what was in this region. We had plenty of hypotheses, with no clue which one was better than the other. Now, we still have a lot of hypothesis, but we crossed-out a huge lot of them.

> The art and wisdom is in choosing what to pursue.

Exactly. On this point, I think the choice made with the LHC is hard to beat. What else could have been done instead that will bring the final word on as much unresolved hypotheses? The question is less clear with the future collider, but if it does not win the best position, it will certainly be in the top ones. So I don't think it is fair to say that people who want to build it are misguided, they still have very good arguments.

Re: CERN bids farewell to the LHC and enters Long Shutdown 3

#104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having spent some time as a cellular tech in Detroit, scrambling up half-wrecked stairwells in long-abandoned buildings to service the radio equipment still running on the roof, those accounts make it sound downright tame. I'd visit in a heartbeat next time I'm in DFW. The landscape is so spacious, I hesitate to call it urb-ex. Rur-ex?

Those are the above ground structures. If you want to see the SSC, that is in deep underground flooded tunnels.

Some of the tunnel property has been sold and converted to what one might call a bunker.

Re: CERN bids farewell to the LHC and enters Long Shutdown 3

#105
post #81
post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's your opinion on Beatriz VIllarroel and her experiments on transient traces in plates?

I don't know her. But in general, I don't value "individual groundbreaking research". This is a very "Disney" view on how science work: a misunderstood genius that makes a discovery that the "scientific elite" refuses to acknowledge. Or very "Ayn Rand" or "Elon Musk" view, with all the teenage hedgelord energy associated to it. The myth of the "one-man-groundbreaking-discovery" makes for good entertainment, but even…

I'm not sure what I think of this. Prodigious amounts of original research where produced by individual geniuses, often misunderstood at the time.

Re: CERN bids farewell to the LHC and enters Long Shutdown 3

#106
post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know her. But in general, I don't value "individual groundbreaking research". This is a very "Disney" view on how science work: a misunderstood genius that makes a discovery that the "scientific elite" refuses to acknowledge. Or very "Ayn Rand" or "Elon Musk" view, with all the teenage hedgelord energy associated to it. The myth of the "one-man-groundbreaking-discovery" makes for good entertainment, but even…

I'm not sure what I think of this. Prodigious amounts of original research where produced by individual geniuses, often misunderstood at the time.

I'm not saying that individuals cannot do huge contributions, but that what matters is science and the "fan club" aspect around "geniuses" is just boring. It may have some slightly different elements than the "fan club" aspect around pop stars or boys bands, but it is basically the same thing.

So, yeah, I'm grateful to Einstein and acknowledge it was an impressive work, but not more than anyone else who has impressive skills.

Re: CERN bids farewell to the LHC and enters Long Shutdown 3

#107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I spent a week there between the LEP going offline and the LHC going online on a school trip - the scale of it is just unreal - as you say, photos are one thing, but as you stand there in a vast subterranean cathedral looking up at the frantically complex detectors (we hung out with ATLAS a fair bit) it’s… awesome. In the very literal sense of the word. Don’t know if you visited the antiproton decelerator/LEAR but th…

Sounds like it probably inspired the underground part of Aperture Science

That, but farther up the chain a generation of physicists was inspired by Escape From the Forbidden Planet, or on 1950s pulps reading about death rays and nuclear space battleships. Life imitates art, imitates life.

It’s just so hard to convey the sheer overwhelming size and complexity of it all - the feeling must have been akin to a mediaeval peasant who has lived their life in a thatched hut seeing a cathedral for the first time. Numinous.

Re: CERN bids farewell to the LHC and enters Long Shutdown 3

#108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> nonsense I'm intimately familiar with how high-energy physicists get hired and funded. The funding comes from the political and budget bucket labeled "nuke stuff". E.g., Fermilab is under the U.S. Department of Energy. CERN is funded by the European Organization for Nuclear Research. Etc., etc. Politicians fund this stuff only because it triggers their wunderwaffen FOMO.

> CERN is funded by the European Organization for Nuclear Research. So you don't know that CERN is the European Organisation for Nuclear Research, that's even worse than what I expected.

> CERN is the European Organisation for Nuclear Research

CERN as in the facility in Meyrin.

I've been there, walked the halls, etc. Don't lecture me.

Re: CERN bids farewell to the LHC and enters Long Shutdown 3

#109
post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know what you mean. I was recently at lunch at a (non-physics) tech conference and an ex-physicist (now a systems developer) sitting next to me responded the same. I think (physicists in the room, please correct me if I'm making assumptions here) this is a classic "falsification" trap. Just because you can propose a hypothesis / prediction that is "falsiable" doesn't make it a worthwhile one to pursue. "Hypotheses"…

> Just because you can propose a hypothesis / prediction that is "falsiable" doesn't make it a worthwhile one to pursue. "Hypotheses" are dime a dozen. I think there is two things: 1. indeed all falsifiable hypothesis are not worth pursuing (for example, the hypothesis of the existence of a teapot in a 1 km2 area on the surface of Mars is technically falsifiable, you can scan and scan the region for it. But it is a p…

Thanks for elaborating. I totally agree with you. I wasn't implying that funding the LHC itself was misguided, for the good reasons you articulate so well.

Re: CERN bids farewell to the LHC and enters Long Shutdown 3

#110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Probably because the upgrades to the collider are so significant that it will be called the HL-LHC afterwards.

Hella Large - Large Hadron Collider?

They missed an opportunity to add 'Colossal' to the beginning, so the acronym would be supersymmetric -- the CHL-LHC
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