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Most arguments are about ego, not ideas

wangcong.org

561–570 of 599 posts

Re: Most arguments are about ego, not ideas

#561

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Is climate change man-made? When having the climate change conversation with deniers I roll it back to; is the climate warming? They almost always[0] agree it is and we agree it’s evidenced. So now we’ve agreed on a fact and have common ground to advance the conversation. Then I can make my case that if we know the climate is warming then we have a responsibility/necessity to reduce our contribution to it and shoul…

i disagree that it' warming, so where do you start with me? I'm not being coy, i 100% believe that all of the warming detected is strictly down to poor placement of sensors and incorrect assumptions thereof in the resultant data. So what we will end up arguing about, if we get past that particularity of my thoughts, is about models. And i hate arguing about models. edit: i think probably the cities are getting "warme…

Thought I addressed this in my original comment but to make it clear, this is typically where I choose to withdraw from any debate. This is where I would typically take the advice in the article.

I don’t want to convince anyone the data is there and believable or even that even lacking any structured data or scientific method it just seems like a sensible explanation of actual witnessed events. How does polar and glacier ice disappear in such a short time if the climate is not warming? Why are there so many habitats exhibiting “heat stress” that is seen impacting plants/animals/etc? All far away from the concrete heat sinks you mention.

Re: Most arguments are about ego, not ideas

#562
post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is not AI

The headings style wasn't an immediate giveaway to you? The rules of three in every. short. staccato. paragraph? The X, not Y? The author's writing is wildly different pre-AI.

I reckon the article was edited so I saw a different version. I noticed the HN title and current title differ.

Re: Most arguments are about ego, not ideas

#564
post #101

孟子曰:「人之患在好爲人師。」 Mencius said: "The trouble with people is that they are too fond of being teachers to others." 仁者如射,射者正己而後發。發而不中,不怨勝己者,反求諸己而已矣。 The benevolent person is like an archer. The archer corrects their own posture before releasing the arrow. If they shoot and miss, they do not blame the one who surpasses them, but simply turn around and seek the cause within themselves. 孟子曰:「愛人不親,反其仁;治人不治,反其智;禮人不答,反其敬。行有不得者,…

`Mencius said: "The trouble with people is that they are too fond of being teachers to others."` I never thought about this but I really believe it to be true and would love to know why is that. For example, whenever I want to get an interaction going with very small kids, I would pretend to not know something and they'd be super happy to teach me - works every time.

> I never thought about this but I really believe it to be true and would love to know why is that

Would suggest possible explanation by adding Orwell's quote: If you want a picture of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face – forever.

Re: Most arguments are about ego, not ideas

#565
post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Every "fact" you state really includes the opinion that the "fact" is indeed a fact. Is climate change man-made?

Are you arguing against the existence of an objective reality? Seems a little extreme. There are countless facts, indisputably so. Gravity, death, the fact you wrote me an answer, the fact I'm writing you an answer. These aren't opinions

> Are you arguing against the existence of an objective reality? Seems a little extreme.

No, I am not arguing against the existence of an objective reality. I argue against the capability of most people to accurately assess what that objective reality is. You for example apparently cannot even assess the meaning of my clear and simple sentence, why would I trust you to be able to assess any more complex situation?

Re: Most arguments are about ego, not ideas

#566

Earlier quoted context omitted.

`Mencius said: "The trouble with people is that they are too fond of being teachers to others."` I never thought about this but I really believe it to be true and would love to know why is that. For example, whenever I want to get an interaction going with very small kids, I would pretend to not know something and they'd be super happy to teach me - works every time.

> I never thought about this but I really believe it to be true and would love to know why is that Would suggest possible explanation by adding Orwell's quote: If you want a picture of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face – forever.

This is generally rooted in the Confucian thought that is broadly spread across Northeast Asia.

To think about your logic a bit more precisely, Orwell's metaphor is about why the power to trample others ultimately arises. In Confucianism, it's usually said:

孟子曰: 君子以仁存心,以禮存心。仁者愛人,有禮者敬人。 (Mencius said: The noble person keeps benevolence in their heart and keeps propriety in their heart. The benevolent person loves others, and the person who has propriety respects others.)

論語: 不憤不啟,不悱不發。 (The Analects: If the learner is not eager to know, do not enlighten them; if they are not struggling to express themselves, do not inspire them.)

孟子曰: 教亦多術矣,予不屑之教誨也者,是亦教誨之而已矣。 (Mencius said: There are many ways to teach. My refusing to teach someone because I deem them unworthy is also a form of teaching.)

This can be summarized as: 'When that desire passes through benevolence and propriety, it becomes good teaching. When it loses benevolence and propriety, it becomes scolding, interference, and self-display.'

From this, teaching can be understood as having different stages. Teaching is meaningful only when the other person is ready to receive it. Teaching is not about pouring out explanations; sometimes not teaching, stepping back, and letting the other person reflect on themselves is also a form of education.

The extreme of power that Orwell speaks of is, in other words, a kind of 'forcing' upon someone who does not want it. This means that the same desire can lead to completely different outcomes depending on which ethical filter it passes through.

However, this is also a very fragmented explanation when viewed in the full context. In modern society, we rarely live out classical thought as a complete system; instead, we cut out fragments of it and use them to explain current problems. I am not trying to explain Confucianism as a whole either. I am simply using the Confucian sensibility that is relatively commonly spread in Korea to try to understand this issue. So I cannot claim that the passages I cited are arranged in a completely rigorous way.

Perhaps the reason I feel this way is because I was born and raised in Korea, and I am currently active there. I am just active on HN because it is the metropolis of the programming world.

I feel that Western individualism treats the individual as a more autonomous unit. In contrast, in the Confucian sensibility I am familiar with, an individual is less like an independent point and more like an intersection of multiple relationships.

I think both Western and Eastern thought have their strengths and weaknesses, and they arrive at similar insights through different paths.

Orwell starts from a macroscopic, top-down perspective and examines how power tries to subjugate humans. This is a response to the macroscopic question, as seen in Machiavelli, of 'power as a matter of order and domination.'

As seen in Orwell's 'Notes on Nationalism,' his thinking is about the problem of proxy power: the attitude where an individual dissolves their identity into a group and pursues that group's power and prestige.

In other words, I think Confucianism asks questions about how to solve this problem at the microscopic level, while Orwell's work is closer to an explanation of how unresolved problems at the microscopic level can cause trouble.

Of course, what I have read is only at a university-level introduction to philosophy, so I hope you will take my answer as being just as superficial. For more detailed explanations, I suspect wild philosophers hungry for questions will appear and take over.

p.s. The irony is that this very comment is basically me pouring out content you probably didn't ask for. The biggest contradiction is that I'm talking about controlling the urge to act like a teacher, while I'm not practicing it myself. In fact, I think Confucianism also has macroscopic discourses, and Orwell also has microscopic explanations, so they don't fit together perfectly. There are also points where they conflict

Re: Most arguments are about ego, not ideas

#567
post #566

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I never thought about this but I really believe it to be true and would love to know why is that Would suggest possible explanation by adding Orwell's quote: If you want a picture of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face – forever.

This is generally rooted in the Confucian thought that is broadly spread across Northeast Asia. To think about your logic a bit more precisely, Orwell's metaphor is about why the power to trample others ultimately arises. In Confucianism, it's usually said: 孟子曰: 君子以仁存心,以禮存心。仁者愛人,有禮者敬人。 (Mencius said: The noble person keeps benevolence in their heart and keeps propriety in their heart. The benevolent person loves othe…

It's not that I didn't ask for content - it's more like I would rather appreciate your genuine thoughts instead of AI output.

Re: Most arguments are about ego, not ideas

#568
post #566

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is generally rooted in the Confucian thought that is broadly spread across Northeast Asia. To think about your logic a bit more precisely, Orwell's metaphor is about why the power to trample others ultimately arises. In Confucianism, it's usually said: 孟子曰: 君子以仁存心,以禮存心。仁者愛人,有禮者敬人。 (Mencius said: The noble person keeps benevolence in their heart and keeps propriety in their heart. The benevolent person loves othe…

It's not that I didn't ask for content - it's more like I would rather appreciate your genuine thoughts instead of AI output.

I'm sorry, but I didn't use AI. The thing that's really hard about this is that the language I write in is Korean, and in the process of translating my words, the sentences and context I can use are limited.

Most of the time, I use officially translated versions of Confucian classics, but I'm actually using Google Translate and Papago (a Korean translator) to translate them. The words I use are fixed, and since the rich vocabulary I use in my native language is restricted, I guess it's inevitable that it looks like AI.

Re: Most arguments are about ego, not ideas

#569
post #566

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is generally rooted in the Confucian thought that is broadly spread across Northeast Asia. To think about your logic a bit more precisely, Orwell's metaphor is about why the power to trample others ultimately arises. In Confucianism, it's usually said: 孟子曰: 君子以仁存心,以禮存心。仁者愛人,有禮者敬人。 (Mencius said: The noble person keeps benevolence in their heart and keeps propriety in their heart. The benevolent person loves othe…

It's not that I didn't ask for content - it's more like I would rather appreciate your genuine thoughts instead of AI output.

But if I had to write briefly without actually searching anywhere, this is what I think. Normally, before writing a comment, I search for other people's thoughts and filter my own through them. But if I had to be sincere, without searching anywhere, or if I had to write briefly, I would say this:

'We are all trapped in a desire for recognition, and it's hard to control that desire. And when that desire loses its way, we try to teach others, try to control them, and ultimately try to take their place. True learning only begins when we put that position down, but we are too afraid of letting go.'

I hope this is the answer you were looking for.

Re: Most arguments are about ego, not ideas

#570

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nobody thinks this way about actual strong convictions they held like belief in god or abortion or polygamy. This works only for very narrow set of topics about numbers and data. Even the same academics that would change their mind quickly about some theory would never actually change their mind on their strong ideological convictions. I know it from real life examples. Strange that it needs to be articulated so loud…

> Nobody thinks this way about actual strong convictions they held like belief in god or abortion or polygamy. There's no need to change that kind of strong convictions, what needs to change is the desire to use such convictions as justification for policies imposed onto others. > Even the same academics that would change their mind quickly about some theory would never actually change their mind on their strong ideo…

If they believe something is right, or even “good” then of course they think everyone else should probably do alike.

Look, I don’t even know why are we arguing over what exactly? I don’t know. Seems like truisms

I don’t even know what is exactly your opposite view on anything right now and if it indeed exists or what is the point of this exchange.

I just said basic truth - majority of people won’t change mind under influence of online strangers and if they do their convictions weren’t that strong to begin with.

You could of course provide me with data that this is not true and people change mind under online strangers persuasion all day everyday

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